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Old 27-07-2015, 20:12   #91
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by The Gman View Post
Speaking as one of these people that have had a dream for the past 5 years with no previous experience and am working to make it a reality next year, I thought I would throw a couple of points in for the other side.

I have been following the forums here for quite a while and have watched as many people new and not so new ask for advice.
They often they get a mix of good advice, average advice and down right Troll like behaviour.

The company I currently work for have a open feedback policy for both good feedback and constructive feedback. It is all about the intent of the feedback and how it presented. I have to say it is the most positive and successful company I have ever worked for. Food for thought maybe.

forum
ˈfɔːrəm/
noun
noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora
  1. 1.
    a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
Now I may be wrong, but the above dictionary view on forum doesn't say anywhere that you need to be nasty or troll like. If you have a view, then present it and the reasons behind it.



Cruiser forum is one of many places I do my research and have found some good pieces of advice from members mostly by lurking. Even when stupid questions are posted the thread can provide a gold nugget.




Last comment, Dreams become reality by receiving a strong foundation of advice and help. Dreams can become a nightmare from a lack of good advice or as a knee jerk reaction to people crushing a dream. So don't be Freddie kruger
I do agree that "it's not what you say but HOW you say it" would be a principle CF members should follow closely.
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Old 27-07-2015, 20:24   #92
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by The Gman View Post
forum
ˈfɔːrəm/
noun
noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora
[LIST=1] [*] 1.
a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
Some great points but one of the problems is right there in the definition. Specifically in the word exchange. New sailors ask a lot of questions but what are they offering in exchange?? Very little. Part of the resentment is that most of us who learned how to sail started by offering free labor (by crewing on boats or taking low paying jobs) in exchange for knowledge. Many new sailors here ask a lot of questions but offer nothing of value in return this is compounded by a degree of frustration knowing, as all sailors do, that all the book work in the world can't prepare you for an ocean voyage. Don't get me wrong, book knowledge certainly helps but there is no substitute for a good mentor and, while I've gotten a lot of PM's asking questions, not once have I received one from somebody asking if they can meet in person and go sailing.
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Old 27-07-2015, 20:27   #93
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

People who are self motivated and successful in other aspects of their lives will not be dissuaded from sailing by an online forum in my opinion.

That said, I'm a big believer in safety first and I don't suggest anyone do anything that is potentially dangerous without first knowing what they are getting in to. And yet each person will approach a complex issue like sailing the seas in their own way. Some will 'just go'. Others will spend years studying, preparing and taking classes and sailing with others to learn what they are doing. There is no guarantee in life one way or the other that it will turn out well, but my vote is for patience, education, experience building through actually sailing and learning, and planning.

And regarding the flat out naysayers you will no doubt eventually encounter in your lives, I saw a comedian who summed up the negative attitudes of people in general fairly nicely during an improv skit when she said roughly:

Notice that nothing you do is ever good enough for anybody these days? You tell someone you want to be a teacher and they say, "Oh man, then you've gotta deal with kids all the time and you won't get paid very well. Plus you have to keep certifying and taking tests your whole life and you'll be sick all the time." But if you tell them you'd like to be a lawyer then they say, "Yeah, but law school is crazy expensive and most lawyers hate their jobs anyway. You're gonna want to jump off of a bridge after a couple of years at it." Okay, fine, fine. Tell someone you want to be a doctor and it's, "Yeah, but doctors don't make what they used to, and now it's just basically running a health insurance scam which bills people for stuff they don't need and you have to see way too many patients and they get poor care..." Okay, then what about if I want to be a rocket scientist? Surely nobody can say anything about that, right? "Come on, Carol, you have to go to school for like, twelve years after high school and you hang out with nerds all day. And plus there's so much math, and the space program is shrinking and if you can't find a job you'll have so many student loans..." So what in the #%$* can I do then, huh? And by the way Sally, you're a *&^%$*# secretary at a used car dealership in case you forgot.

I think her point is fairly clear, and it mimics my real life experiences very closely. Meanwhile I've left most of the naysayers I know in the dust by opening my own business. Currently I'm doing quite well, which I am now actively using to get me closer and closer to my goal of sailing more and more as I spend my time studying various materials in preparation, taking classes and following informational resources like CF. All in due time for me, but the planning and research started over a year ago and is definitively in the works.

P.S. All online forums in my experience follow a very similar format, so I wouldn't spend too much time trying to change the advice people give or sweating negativity. For a fun read, check out this example: Hammer Forum Parody
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Old 27-07-2015, 20:47   #94
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by gcaptain View Post
Some great points but one of the problems is right there in the definition. Specifically in the word exchange. New sailors ask a lot of questions but what are they offering in exchange?? Very little.
That's not entirely true... we learn to how to have a discourse on new recruits, as it were.
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Old 27-07-2015, 21:00   #95
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by YachtOgler View Post

P.S. All online forums in my experience follow a very similar format, so I wouldn't spend too much time trying to change the advice people give or sweating negativity. For a fun read, check out this example: Hammer Forum Parody


How scary (and funny) is that hammer forum post.

We are not individuals, we are all the same with different interests.
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Old 27-07-2015, 21:10   #96
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by gcaptain View Post
Some great points but one of the problems is right there in the definition. Specifically in the word exchange. New sailors ask a lot of questions but what are they offering in exchange?? Very little. Part of the resentment is that most of us who learned how to sail started by offering free labor (by crewing on boats or taking low paying jobs) in exchange for knowledge. Many new sailors here ask a lot of questions but offer nothing of value in return this is compounded by a degree of frustration knowing, as all sailors do, that all the book work in the world can't prepare you for an ocean voyage. Don't get me wrong, book knowledge certainly helps but there is no substitute for a good mentor and, while I've gotten a lot of PM's asking questions, not once have I received one from somebody asking if they can meet in person and go sailing.
I can appreciate why can be frustrated by questions from the new however..

1) when a kid first starts to go to school, a good teacher gets kids thinking rather than shutting them down.
2) some of the newbies will hopefully eventually be experienced and hence better able to give back to the forum.
3) In this day and age with computers, a large part of learning has moved to the internet so it to be expected. (however I do agree that you need to get out and meet people/get practical etc.
4) I have found the value in the questions asked by new members can be found in the responses. granted that may not be of value for you but it is for other new members.

(sorry about the numbering, just helps me with the thought process)
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Old 27-07-2015, 21:20   #97
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

I live on a boat and have crossed an ocean, so sometimes people ask me to teach them to sail or tell me about how they're going to sail on the ocean. I have a test for such people. I tell them straight "Go and take a piloting course at the Power Squadron."

If they do, fine, I can talk to them. Many say something like "I don't need no stinkin' piloting course, I was in the Marines in Viet Nam....". That's it, I do not pass the time of day with these people. I wouldn't leave the dock in the same boat with them.
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Old 27-07-2015, 22:08   #98
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by The Gman View Post
I can appreciate why can be frustrated by questions from the new however..

1) when a kid first starts to go to school, a good teacher gets kids thinking rather than shutting them down.
2) some of the newbies will hopefully eventually be experienced and hence better able to give back to the forum.
3) In this day and age with computers, a large part of learning has moved to the internet so it to be expected. (however I do agree that you need to get out and meet people/get practical etc.
4) I have found the value in the questions asked by new members can be found in the responses. granted that may not be of value for you but it is for other new members.

(sorry about the numbering, just helps me with the thought process)
I'm not frustrated personally... just trying to understand why some people feel the need to be trolls.

1) Yes but you are paying said teacher (via tuition or taxes)
2) True
3)True
4) They are of value to me too.
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Old 27-07-2015, 22:34   #99
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

I am one of the new members trying to figure things out, and probably asking stupid questions. But those are the only questions I'm smart enough to know;-) as I get more practise and experience, and advice from you fine fellows, I will become smarter and ask smarter questions.
As stated earlier by someone you used to have to wander the docks and crew for old salts to learn anything. I do that every weekend. Just yesterday I spent the afternoon sailing with a guy who taught me tons! During the week I can't be at the lake so I pester you guys because it's an easy way to add to my learning.
With regard to what we( inexperienced sailors) give back, not much, yet. But I have found with other pursuits in my life, teaching a skill enhances your abilities almost as much as the students. Even in a job I have been doing for the last 15 years I will still get new guys asking a question that opens my eyes to something that makes us more efficient.
Thanks to all that respond to us new guys. Good and bad comments drive us forward, with extra knowledge and caution. So both are valuable.
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Old 27-07-2015, 23:04   #100
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

If you have to ask if you are capable, chances are you are not.
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Old 27-07-2015, 23:42   #101
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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I've never seen the ocean and have no idea how sails work. We found a lovely engineless ferrocement boat in guatamala on the internet. They say it's cruise ready. Our plan is to take a couple suit cases and head out on a round the world trip.


Is this a good idea?


There are the stray couples where this works out but you hear about them because it's so unusual for it to work out.


Blanket "go for it" responses are irresponsible. Providing guidance on a better course of action or an action that show the potential errors is the better option. A simple recommendation to have the boat surveyed and have the surveyor come up with a cost to bring it up to snuff could be enough to save them thousands and much grief.
Most overnight successes are years in the making.

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Old 28-07-2015, 01:09   #102
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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If you have to ask if you are capable, chances are you are not.
I think this logic construct is only useful in the spirit of Groucho Marx.
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Old 28-07-2015, 05:23   #103
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Many new sailors here ask a lot of questions but offer nothing of value in return .
You must be kidding. If it weren't for newbies asking the same basic questions over and over what would members do? And I bet there are many more people reading the thread question that participating in it.
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Old 28-07-2015, 05:28   #104
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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You must be kidding. If it weren't for newbies asking the same basic questions over and over what would members do?
Plus they/we wouldn't have anyone to make fun of.

Speaking of newbies, a guy at our dock went out the other day for his tenth or so first sail. Coming back in to the dock afterwards, he bumped just about every boat on the way to his slip.

He didn't notice the wind and how it would affect his reentry.

I have an outboard and, if it had been in the up position, he would have taken it right off!

I was there to push him off though so then he hit the next boat in line..........
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Old 28-07-2015, 05:54   #105
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

This is my pet peeve about CF. No one should EVER encourage someone to leave.

Think about it--- a perfect stranger (we have never met the person) is so unsure of themselves they ask an anonymous forum to validate their skills.

WTF?!?!?? While I am light on offshore experience, like many others on this forum I have a good history with the sea. If I have to ask someone if I am ready, I am not ready. This mindset has worked well for the past 60 years of interesting adventuress do close calls.


Will the forum be there when the 8, 10, 15 or higher rollers kick up some muck that fouls the filters? Or at 3 am to set a reef in the dark?? No it will be the poster and that person alone.

Only the person skipper can determine if he is ready. We can, and should, ask questions to help the person but telling people to "go for it" is reckless----


what was that guys name??? SCOOBERT?


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