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Old 24-09-2015, 11:49   #286
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pirate Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

I reckon the reason there were fewer small boat sailors back in the last century was simply down to one thing..
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Old 24-09-2015, 12:13   #287
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Im thinking you guys are perhaps missing something. Its is not your job or mine to assume the responsibility for anyone else.

Example. 4 years ago, I examined a patient who was a heavy smoker and told him that he was right in line for limb removal if he did not quit smoking immediately. I laid it on the line so he understood the risks

That is as far as I go. He was informed and the rest was up to him. He chose to continue smoking and a few months later had his left leg amputated, and a week later his right. He died a while after that.

I see a lot of information here erring on the side of caution, and personal experience of what is required for certain aspects of sailing, and that is, I am afraid, as far as our 'responsibility' goes.

Would I encourage anyone to "just go?" I find generally I dont encourage people one way or another for a life decision or a choice involving risk. Most people have already decided to do something or not do something and the asking is to 'share the decision'.

I just state the facts and obstacles and the knowledge necessary to do a certain thing, and then leave it to the person. If they ask me directly-I will tell them to think very carefully. If they keep pushing for an answer, unless a family member or close friend, I will not encourage or discourage.

Some people are just plain stupid. Some people have cognitive dissonance when it comes to the situation and an innate belief in their own self and abilities. Some have weighed it all up and decided to do it based on a careful evaluation, and a willingness to learn.

This is a discussion board, and people read this without joining. Some may have made a choice to go sailing from material here, and some will have been put off. We will never know.

Mostly we are adults with life experience, and therefore the choices are not ours to make. We just say it how it is and leave it to each other.

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Old 24-09-2015, 13:52   #288
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I bet it is.

I know of at lest six casualties last year - all this only within the very limited area of N Atlantic and based of press clips. I would very wildly guess there are at least 20 but likely more fatalities any given year.

How many people die from playing golf every year?

But maybe there are more injuries in golf than in sailing.

b.
Statistics in a vacuum are meaningless (e.g., six people died last year so boating is dangerous).

Cruising is a very safe thing to do. Why? Because the whole time you're cruising, you're not driving a car. Life expectancy increases while cruising. (And I don't even have any vacuum statisitics to support my thesis.)
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Old 24-09-2015, 14:21   #289
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Im thinking you guys are perhaps missing something. Its is not your job or mine to assume the responsibility for anyone else.



Example. 4 years ago, I examined a patient who was a heavy smoker and told him that he was right in line for limb removal if he did not quit smoking immediately. I laid it on the line so he understood the risks



That is as far as I go. He was informed and the rest was up to him. He chose to continue smoking and a few months later had his left leg amputated, and a week later his right. He died a while after that.



I see a lot of information here erring on the side of caution, and personal experience of what is required for certain aspects of sailing, and that is, I am afraid, as far as our 'responsibility' goes.



Would I encourage anyone to "just go?" I find generally I dont encourage people one way or another for a life decision or a choice involving risk. Most people have already decided to do something or not do something and the asking is to 'share the decision'.



I just state the facts and obstacles and the knowledge necessary to do a certain thing, and then leave it to the person. If they ask me directly-I will tell them to think very carefully. If they keep pushing for an answer, unless a family member or close friend, I will not encourage or discourage.



Some people are just plain stupid. Some people have cognitive dissonance when it comes to the situation and an innate belief in their own self and abilities. Some have weighed it all up and decided to do it based on a careful evaluation, and a willingness to learn.



This is a discussion board, and people read this without joining. Some may have made a choice to go sailing from material here, and some will have been put off. We will never know.



Mostly we are adults with life experience, and therefore the choices are not ours to make. We just say it how it is and leave it to each other.




I'm also a doc and used to simply state the facts and risks and leave it to patients. Then I saw this article which has changed me to be a bit more aggressive in trying to motivate patients. For those who don't like a good read, scroll down to the part about the Fairview-University Childrenís Hospitalís cystic-fibrosis center and Dr. Warren Warwick where they explain why he has better outcomes due to more aggressive approach with patients.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...the-bell-curve

Of course, on CF no one is paying us to manage their outcomes. Free advice can be a bit more laid back, right?


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Old 24-09-2015, 14:29   #290
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by Cottontop View Post
Statistics in a vacuum are meaningless (e.g., six people died last year so boating is dangerous).

Cruising is a very safe thing to do. Why? Because the whole time you're cruising, you're not driving a car. Life expectancy increases while cruising. (And I don't even have any vacuum statisitics to support my thesis.)
YES.

Sure thing, all stats has to be seen in the sample / population light. Then again we must see the varied levels of 'risk' - getting cramps while biking is different level of 'risk' than drowning while swimming. Sailing is a technical sport that asks for some fitness and is done on the water. Things happen very quickly and may lead to serious consequences (mostly drowning, death from hypothermia, less often from boredom).

What you say about car driving I am 100% with you. I do not even have one, which did not spare me getting nearly run down and more than once, both times on a zebra and with the port light (a.k.a 'walk' in the US) in my favour.

As I said elsewhere: In my book, life is not about avoiding risks. As someone else said elsewhere: 'Live passionately, even if it kills you, because something is going to kill you anyway'.(*)

Cheers,
b.

(*) Webb Chiles: Self-portrait in the present sea.
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Old 24-09-2015, 14:38   #291
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Im thinking you guys are perhaps missing something. Its is not your job or mine to assume the responsibility for anyone else.

Example. 4 years ago, I examined a patient who was a heavy smoker and told him that he was right in line for limb removal if he did not quit smoking immediately. I laid it on the line so he understood the risks

That is as far as I go. He was informed and the rest was up to him. He chose to continue smoking and a few months later had his left leg amputated, and a week later his right. He died a while after that.

I see a lot of information here erring on the side of caution, and personal experience of what is required for certain aspects of sailing, and that is, I am afraid, as far as our 'responsibility' goes.

Would I encourage anyone to "just go?" I find generally I dont encourage people one way or another for a life decision or a choice involving risk. Most people have already decided to do something or not do something and the asking is to 'share the decision'.

I just state the facts and obstacles and the knowledge necessary to do a certain thing, and then leave it to the person. If they ask me directly-I will tell them to think very carefully. If they keep pushing for an answer, unless a family member or close friend, I will not encourage or discourage.

Some people are just plain stupid. Some people have cognitive dissonance when it comes to the situation and an innate belief in their own self and abilities. Some have weighed it all up and decided to do it based on a careful evaluation, and a willingness to learn.

This is a discussion board, and people read this without joining. Some may have made a choice to go sailing from material here, and some will have been put off. We will never know.

Mostly we are adults with life experience, and therefore the choices are not ours to make. We just say it how it is and leave it to each other.

I love the last paragraph.
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Old 24-09-2015, 14:44   #292
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

I must be simple minded or something, but most of CapErict and Cate's comments have lit a fire under me. (not on deck) My laguna 25, is not very modern but it is solid. i intent to give it a decent tryout. But up until now, I thought I was missing something. You guys (gals) are right "just do it". Thank you for this particular insight of sailing. You made is 60 yr old a believer.
Thanks again CF
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Old 25-09-2015, 07:42   #293
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Frankly, I find all the posts above sound advice, helpful, and a great read ... and not only because I have contributed ;-)

But now seriously, there are moments when I do advice people not to go. I spend much time in a big marina where wishful thinkers arrive and bonk they smack up into me on the dock and state they want to cross the ocean (this is a 100% true, repetitive scene, not an imagined one).

I look at their rucksack(*) and I ask if they have a boat. They say no. Now in turn they ask me where they can find a boat. To which I reply with a dumb look. Then I always tell them not to go.

This would be, IMHO, most irresponsible to offer the advice of 'just do it' to people who do not have a boat and can't tell one while standing in the middle of a marina.

One needs a boat and this starts with (I am afraid) an innate ability to tell one from a car. And by innate I mean some simply do not have it.

*They all come with huge rucksack. Like if they expected mountains offshore.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 25-09-2015, 07:49   #294
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

LOL

Heres the deal.

When they person asking the questions, has a list of questions given back to them,
  1. Can you sail?
  2. Whats a cleat?
  3. Can you read a chart?
  4. A question on Colregs
  5. How to anchor
  6. Do you get seasick?

And it becomes obvious that they know nothing, A wise one will acknowledge that things need to be prioritised.
A whack job will do it anyway.

I just mention that a bit of learning and training would stand them in good stead before going offshore.
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Old 25-09-2015, 08:03   #295
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pirate Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Actually the most dangerous recreation in the world is SEX...
Funny no one admits it.. or maybe they're just to dumb to realise..


Just Go 4 It...
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Old 25-09-2015, 09:01   #296
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Actually the most dangerous recreation in the world is SEX...
Funny no one admits it.. or maybe they're just to dumb to realise..


Just Go 4 It...
Sex while driving a car: very dangerous.
Sex while cruising: not so much (I know, keep a proper lookout, etc.).
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Old 25-09-2015, 09:21   #297
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

La Vagabonde anyone? Should we advise them to not go?
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Old 26-09-2015, 02:15   #298
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

[QUOTE=boatman61;1922549]Actually the most dangerous recreation in the world is SEX...
Funny no one admits it.. or maybe they're just to dumb to realise..


My wife and I must have lived a charmed life, during 60 years of marriage.
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Old 26-09-2015, 05:38   #299
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Actually the most dangerous recreation in the world is SEX...
Funny no one admits it.. or maybe they're just to dumb to realise..


Just Go 4 It...
Just remember, accidents cause people.

goat

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Old 26-09-2015, 06:05   #300
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pirate Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

[QUOTE=nockerwhite;1923176]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Actually the most dangerous recreation in the world is SEX...
Funny no one admits it.. or maybe they're just to dumb to realise..


My wife and I must have lived a charmed life, during 60 years of marriage.
Actually I was thinking of the consequences of the 'Sport' for many.. GBH, Murder, Syphillis, HIV, to name a few.. serious back injury is common for the more athletic..
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