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Old 05-08-2015, 14:15   #211
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

I feel it pretty apparent that the best way to crush ones dreams is to ask a forum if it is a good idea.
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Old 05-08-2015, 14:18   #212
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I feel it pretty apparent that the best way to crush ones dreams is to ask a forum if it is a good idea.
Amen...and Amen!

All the experts would have told me...
You can't do it
Your boats too small to cruise with two kids
You don't have enough experience
Your budget is too small
Oh and your ugly fat and too much of a smart ass to fit into the cruising community..ha ha ha...ok...maybe that last one it true....
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Old 05-08-2015, 14:25   #213
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pirate Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

There's a lot of things in life I've been told I cant do.. then did it..
Then I got into sailing and figured...
"Why Change.."
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Old 05-08-2015, 14:36   #214
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I feel it pretty apparent that the best way to crush ones dreams is to ask a forum if it is a good idea.
I don't get why the dreams have to be crushed If the dreamer so sees fit, he/she can improve the implementation of the dreams using helpful advice.

Regarding fatality statistics: sure, but I don't see much sense in skipping discussions about safety at sea because of those.
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Old 05-08-2015, 14:58   #215
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
I know...why don't we just have a committee of CF members approve and bless any cruiser before they can cast off?

Really folks...1/3 to half the cruisers out there now (still alive) had zero to nada experience before casting off and how many hurt themselves or die or need rescue die to their lack of experience? More people slip on the bathroom floor and die a year than die out cruising, so its time to relax and stop the BS of only those that know what they are doing can go cruising....because if that was the criteria, most of the experts here wouldn't have been allowed to cast off by the CF Approval Experts.
I generally agree with most of what you say, Rich, but the reason I posted the original article was to point out that not all potential cruisers are equal. The guy in the article will likely never be able to cruise or even sail locally because he just doesn't seem to "get it." He doesn't understand the risks, or how things are supposed to work and he refuses to actually learn and practice.

I doubt that the real statistics on deaths slipping on the bathroom floor vs cruising would support your position if we normalized for the number of people doing each activity.

There are real risks if, for example, inexperienced people set out on long crossings in the wrong season. We saw a couple rescues off of the US East coast this winter for exactly that reason.
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Old 05-08-2015, 15:35   #216
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
"Quote:
Originally Posted by mglonnro
Mmkay. This belongs to this discussion.

18 Days at sea, Our crazy crossing from Victoria to San Francisco! — STAY GOLD - ACROSS THE PACIFIC



I'm guessing they didn't ask for go/nogo from here."

I just read the blog post and in all honesty I did not see anything in it that would have indicated they were any less ready to go than many others who have gone before. They did make it. They did what they had to do. The sails sound like they might have been tired but if that were the reason to not go then probably 40% or more of the boats I have seen out and about shouldn't go either. They did seem to have some bad luck with a monster storm. The Admiral and I have also been thrown across the boat with serious damage to various body parts but that didn't indicate we weren't "ready to go". Waves in a blow are not predictable really. So even in hindsight they didn't seem grossly unprepared. A wind pilot would have been nice but ours broke half way across the Pacific and somehow we managed to get there anyway. So I would say good on them. Perhaps there were other reasons why they should not have left when they did in the boat they had but it wasn't obvious by the blog post. I can see other boats that someone might say was better prepared, or with better prepared crew, that might not survive the same passage.

And BTW - I don't think Stu was all that rude in his post somewhere above. FWIW.....
I agree with ExMaggieDrum on most points above (I have not yet read Stu's comment so no comment on that).

Saw the linked blog post just today in this thread. Went to the blog. Read the blog post about their first offshore voyage down to San Francisco. Enjoyed the writing and the photos.

Sometimes I read stuff about new sailors taking off "unprepared" and it makes me cringe. And, sometimes I feel like a curmudgeon for not being more "Yes go" like some here are prone to be. I think I tend to be a more "conservative" sailor, so what follows may seem out of sorts with what I normally write here on CF.

But, reading that well written blog post I think it is clear that they:

1. Are young.
2. Are fulfilling a dream.
3. Prepared the boat, as best they could with some refitting.
4. The skipper read a lot about sailing for a year before the voyage.
5. They wore their PFD (see photos)
6. They experienced seasickness, calm days, equipment failure, high seas, some damage, stress, lack of sleep, sickness, exhaustion.
7. They needed or wanted some assistance at the very end.
8. They got some help from helpful sailors in SF.
9. They made it.
10. They are ready to go again.


Overall, I was impressed by their grit and their attitude and their survival.

Reading their blog post, I think they have what it takes to go far.

As I see it, they probably learned in one 18 day voyage more than some people do in years of sailing coastal or on lakes. They saw for themselves how the ocean can be benign (visits by whale) and challenging (high seas, huge waves).

Consequently, I will share that blog post in the future here on CF or elsewhere, because I think it is a good example, in order to show newbies or people contemplating a first offshore voyage, what CAN happen on the ocean.

And I don't mean that in condemnation of what they did!

As I see it, it is a good example of how the sea can be challenging and it is BEST to be prepared for some possible risks, some need to fix things when they break or to do without, etc.

My feelings about what they experienced and wrote prompted me to share one of my mottos I like to tell anyone contemplating an adventure:

"Remember, it would not be an adventure if there were not some unknowns, some risk, some discomfort, and some discovery."


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Regarding the lack of an autopilot of some kind, failed electrical, broken hatch, broken port light? It happens.

Regarding the storm tactics they used? I read all kinds of differences of opinion on that here on this forum. We all have to choose our position (or poison) on how to handle big seas and storms at sea.
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Old 05-08-2015, 21:47   #217
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
As I see it, they probably learned in one 18 day voyage more than some people do in years of sailing coastal
But whilst they were out doing it, the coastal sailors were safely tucked away in a secure port at night on the internet posting away on CF crushing all wannabe's hopes and dreams
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Old 05-08-2015, 22:10   #218
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

From what I've seen on Cruisers forum every single " get out there and do this thing" post has been about fishing for validation more than advice. I've yet to come across a single instance where anyone who started a thread looking for 'advice' (encouragement) listened to anyone that wasn't saying what they were already looking to hear.


The tone I've tried to set (in the rare cases I've felt the need to reply) is to give the original poster the encouragement they're looking for, while adding every scrap of caution, reason, and other general caveats I can think of.


If you approach someone who is excited about doing something with a bunch of reasons not to do the something they want to do, you're probably going to get ignored. If you say something along the lines of "hell yeah, go for it! But don't forget to... (Insert why you don't think they should be doing what they're doing here)..." You might actually get them to listen to you and save them some grief (or possibly their lives)


Knowledge can usually be recognized as a way to do something, Opinion can usually be recognized as a reason to NOT do something.... just saying....
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Old 06-08-2015, 02:40   #219
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by Ryan H View Post
The tone I've tried to set (in the rare cases I've felt the need to reply) is to give the original poster the encouragement they're looking for, while adding every scrap of caution, reason, and other general caveats I can think of.
^ +1 to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand
1. Are young.
2. Are fulfilling a dream.
3. Prepared the boat, as best they could with some refitting.
4. The skipper read a lot about sailing for a year before the voyage.
5. They wore their PFD (see photos)
6. They experienced seasickness, calm days, equipment failure, high seas, some damage, stress, lack of sleep, sickness, exhaustion.
7. They needed or wanted some assistance at the very end.
8. They got some help from helpful sailors in SF.
9. They made it.
10. They are ready to go again.


Here are some of my reflections:

1. Weather forecasts are good for determining when, given the current and projected condition of vessel and crew, it's a good time to be out sailing and when it's not. I don't know whether they got weather updates offshore, but knowing what weather one is about to sail in is usually a good thing.

2. Adding to the thought above, the condition of the both crew and boat did deteriorate quite a lot during their trip. Sea sickness, food poisoning and fatigue, loss of electricity and nav lights, broken sails and porthole.

3. Things add up. If the cooler had been stored in a better place, or had been better lashed down, and if they hadn't used the second lifeline for the tiller, the skipper might not have had to be outside untethered with a wave hitting the boat and almost throwing him overboard. Lifelines are good!

4. I assume the risk of the boat doing a 360 roll was present, and I guess it is/would be good to do one's best to prepare for that in the future as well. Life rafts are good as well

5. They made it! I think it was a good call to get the help of the coast guard in the end. Navigating in the dark without nav lights and a lot of traffic isn't very good.

Here are some things I'd do if I was going (which I obviously am not, since I'm just armchair sailing here on CF ):

- Sort out the electricity problem.
- Get a life raft
- Establish some way of emergency communication when far offshore (satellite, SSB, EPIRB, ...)
- Make sure stuff isn't going to be flying around inside our outside the boat even in bad weather.
- Make sure the life line attachments are good and get a few spares.

And sincerely, I am not at all saying they shouldn't have been "encouraged to go". I'm very happy that we as adults can decide ourselves, what we want to do. If anything, I think their project is cool as sunshine, and it would be great to be on that boat.
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:30   #220
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Thumbs up Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Do the best you can to prepare yourself and the boat and.....Just Go!
If not, one day you may be 80 yrs old sitting on that porch in the rocking chair wishing you had....
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Old 02-09-2015, 23:38   #221
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
We often have debates about whether we as a general group are too encouraging to newbies with a dream. Most should go and do it, but some should never go to sea.



Can we tell the difference on a forum?



What are our responsibilities as a community?



Here's a cautionary tale from someone who tried to dissuade a dock-mate. He went anyways and put himself and his crew at risk. And learned nothing.

Grab the brass ring. Follow your dream. Carpe Diem.

However you want to say it, I am a believer.

I know quite a number of prodigious internet experts that own very nice boats that may leave the bay once a year in a regatta. Even then some else will be acting skipper or "tactician"(to save face.

I spent many years offshore with someone else at the helm and doing the navigation. Heavy weather was all about discomfort. Never the danger. I remember looking at the next towering wall of water coming and thinking only about the smell coming from a guys barf bag.

Approaching the sea from a life in sales or a computer tech is another world. Time slows as you start to climb that big wave. 6 hours into it you wonder if dawn will ever come. If you have passengers, are they crying for some sort of relief?

If somehow you manage not to push the button on the yellow box and the wind dies down, the sun peeps out then maybe the crew brings you a hot cuppa.

I think you should encourage folks on general principle.

But beware of old wooden boats


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Old 03-09-2015, 00:30   #222
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

I disagree. I do not think one should blanket encourage newbies.

I would feel really badly if as the result of my encouragement, someone came to grief; hence, I edit what I write with that sense of responsibility in mind.

If, as some newbies do, a person seems to underestimate what's ahead, then I more or less feel obliged to state some of the more obvious complications.

To me, it would be irresponsible to encourage an inexperienced person to take an inadequately prepared, or basically inadequate (like a day sailor) boat to sea.

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Old 03-09-2015, 00:50   #223
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
We often have debates about whether we as a general group are too encouraging to newbies with a dream. Most should go and do it, but some should never go to sea.

Can we tell the difference on a forum?

What are our responsibilities as a community?
.
I never think of myself as being associated with a group or responsible for someone else's decision.

On the Forum..I try to answer questions, give anecdotal examples of my decisions/experiences and sometimes just good naturedly tease.
Mostly, I just learn from others.

Face to face, depends on the attitude of the person and whether they possess that necessary feeling of mortality and self preservation.

If not, I tend to ignore them,
If yes and they ask my advice?... I am like Ann.
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Old 03-09-2015, 01:39   #224
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

I met the paid delivery skip and his 1 crew member of the Kaimalolo for a few minutes the evening before departure. Knowing something of the range of the boat under power, I suggested the coastal route until they could pick up the Gulf Stream south.

As you may have noted, they never made the gulf. These guys delivered boats for a living and somehow their walk on board and go ck list did not include bilge pumps.

We have no way of determining other folks credentials online. Hell, I have had more bs resumes come across my desk than I can count.

But even with all that I feel I have a mandate to give them encouragement. Yes they need to prep. But even prep is livin the dream. Most never get very far past the prep stage.

Somebody likely turned you loose as a teen with 4 wheels pushed by over 200 hp. Now that is a good way to get hurt.


Life may make me a lubber tomorrow. But I was glad to be a sailor today. Even the scrubbing.



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Old 07-09-2015, 08:09   #225
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Just some perspective from a newbie.

These threads are really helpful to getting a new dreamers thoughts headed in the right direction. Adequate knowledge, planning and experience all take the right mindset to learn. I don't mind if people bash on my questions. They get my thoughts turned to asking better questions.

Yes newbies should be encouraged and discouraged in equal measure. But the "not experienced enough" argument is pretty useless. One gains experience through self testing. But I will say when life is at stake the self test should come in baby steps.
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