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Old 05-03-2019, 12:59   #91
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
. . . The whole ‘first anchored rules the roost’ is an interesting academic perspective, but I honestly don’t understand how it is expected to operate in the real world. In a busy anchorage, unless you are the second boat to arrive, you generally have no idea who is first. There can be dozens or hundreds of boats, all coming and going all the time. How the heck is someone supposed to know who was first? When the “first” leaves, does the second become the first? This is not a useful way of approaching an anchoring challenge...

It's actually much simpler than that -- you don't have to sort out first, second etc. This rule, which does in fact have a legal basis, simply means that you are responsible for anchoring safely, and that includes in relation to ALL other vessels which are already there. Whoever comes later than you, is responsible for anchoring in a way which avoids contact with everyone who came before him, including you. This is actually quite logical.


But it does NOT indeed mean that a person who anchored first "rules the roost", or owns the seabed according to his own opinion about how much room he needs. This is a common misconception. A person coming later has the right to anchor the way he pleases, subject only to his responsibility in case of an accident. The earlier vessel has no right to do anything but move, in case he disagrees.


Courtesy, consideration, kindness, and tolerance are of course the essential lubricants in crowded anchorages, just like in any situation where people get jammed up close together.
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Old 05-03-2019, 14:07   #92
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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It's actually much simpler than that -- you don't have to sort out first, second etc. This rule, which does in fact have a legal basis, simply means that you are responsible for anchoring safely, and that includes in relation to ALL other vessels which are already there. Whoever comes later than you, is responsible for anchoring in a way which avoids contact with everyone who came before him, including you. This is actually quite logical.

But it does NOT indeed mean that a person who anchored first "rules the roost", or owns the seabed according to his own opinion about how much room he needs. This is a common misconception. A person coming later has the right to anchor the way he pleases, subject only to his responsibility in case of an accident. The earlier vessel has no right to do anything but move, in case he disagrees.

Courtesy, consideration, kindness, and tolerance are of course the essential lubricants in crowded anchorages, just like in any situation where people get jammed up close together.
I completely agree DH. This is what I was trying to say in my more convoluted way no doubt . Anchor safely given the circumstances. Be considerate of other people, but predominately anchor appropriately and safely given the constraints of a busy anchorage.

Yet there seems to be this view expressed by some here that the first person in gets to do whatever-the-heck they want with regard to anchoring practice, and subsequent boats have an obligation to respect this choices, no matter what. This strikes me as patently unfair and untenable in the real world.

To use my own anecdote as an example, Mr. Grouchy-pants essentially tried to lay claim to the entire anchorage with his excessive scope. If we had gone bump in the night it would have been b/c of his 12:1 scope. So, who is the irresponsible one here? And who is legally liable for damages?
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Old 05-03-2019, 14:31   #93
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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And how do you know their scope? Did you ask them?
Mk 1 eyeball, the area covered with the wandering of the vessel during tidal changes and lastly the distance they needed to move forward to retrieve the anchor on departure.
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Old 05-03-2019, 14:38   #94
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
. . . Yet there seems to be this view expressed by some here that the first person in gets to do whatever-the-heck they want with regard to anchoring practice, and subsequent boats have an obligation to respect this choices, no matter what. This strikes me as patently unfair and untenable in the real world.

I agree. Good seamanship requires that you anchor safely, and also in a way which does not create unreasonable dangers to others coming lately. Using grossly inappropriate scope, or laying two anchors if it's not really required for some reason, or using some wacky shore tie when others are not doing that, or using one of those bloody anchor buoys which forms a trap for others trying to maneuver in the anchorage (and a significant risk that your own anchor will get pulled out, if someone tangles with the buoy), is all bad seamanship, and inconsiderate.


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To use my own anecdote as an example, Mr. Grouchy-pants essentially tried to lay claim to the entire anchorage with his excessive scope. If we had gone bump in the night it would have been b/c of his 12:1 scope. So, who is the irresponsible one here? And who is legally liable for damages?

Good question. Morally, I think you're right, but legally, I'm afraid that there will be an initial presumption that you are liable because you came later. Possibly could be overcome if you showed you couldn't have known about his scope, and/or that his scope was grossly inappropriate for the bottom and conditions. But I'm afraid that would be an uphill battle, and I think you should work on the basis that you are really more or less solely responsible for avoiding collisions with boats who were there before you, and you'd better just stay away from someone with wacky scope.
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Old 05-03-2019, 15:53   #95
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Interestingly enough, with all the boats in SF, except for Summer Solstice and Fleet Week, it's rare to see people anchored out. I don't think most folks know how to do it. I confirmed that with my friends: I proposed an anchor out weekend and of the over 50 skippers in our club only five showed up!

And three of those had never done it before.YMMV.

When I first started anchoring about in the SF bay area, in 2007, I would see upwords of 20+ boats anchored out from Friday evening to sunday at China Camp. Since 2012 ish, I saw at most 2-3 a weekend and half of them only stayed a few hours. Clipper cove does get busy on the weekend, but that's the only place I've seen a crowd.



I see far fewer sailboats anchoring out in the california delta as well. Most are day sailors. Weird.... Not that I'm complaining.....
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Old 06-03-2019, 13:12   #96
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Wow! 95 posts on anchoring etiquette. This is exactly why we avoid "popular" anchorages and choose areas where this is an unlikely occurrence. It is our experience that the lack of knowledge and respect by the "average cruiser" is truly stunning as experienced in over 30 years of cruising. A few simple tips:
1. avoid circus anchorages at all costs (Georgetown, Bahamas; Key West;
U.S. Intercoastal; USVI; etc.)
2. never anchor in areas with an anchor symbol on the chart if crowded
3. pick alternative anchorages based on bottom characteristics, protection
and maneuvering room from your nautical chart and past experience
Rudeness, incompetence, and fear are endemic on the water and the cost/length of the vessel is never a guarantee for anything. There are still many remote spots left to cruise if you're willing to exert a little effort and have competent skills and you'll avoid the sad stories we've just read. Good luck and safe sailing. . . Rognvald
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Old 06-03-2019, 13:23   #97
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
Wow! 95 posts on anchoring etiquette. This is exactly why we avoid "popular" anchorages and choose areas where this is an unlikely occurrence. It is our experience that the lack of knowledge and respect by the "average cruiser" is truly stunning as experienced in over 30 years of cruising. A few simple tips:
1. avoid circus anchorages at all costs (Georgetown, Bahamas; Key West;
U.S. Intercoastal; USVI; etc.)
2. never anchor in areas with an anchor symbol on the chart if crowded
3. pick alternative anchorages based on bottom characteristics, protection
and maneuvering room from your nautical chart and past experience
Rudeness, incompetence, and fear are endemic on the water and the cost/length of the vessel is never a guarantee for anything. There are still many remote spots left to cruise if you're willing to exert a little effort and have competent skills and you'll avoid the sad stories we've just read. Good luck and safe sailing. . . Rognvald

You would like the Northern Baltic -- I spent whole summers at anchor there without ever sharing an anchorage with even one other boat more than two or three times over the course of the whole summer. That's because it's so vast with so many places to anchor in the millions of islands. That + Allemansrecht = cruising paradise!



But sometimes you just don't have any choice about a crowded anchorage -- where there are no islands, little shelter, and few choices. So you just have to make do sometimes. Good humor and tolerance are key.
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Old 06-03-2019, 13:30   #98
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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You would like the Northern Baltic -- I spent whole summers at anchor there without ever sharing an anchorage with even one other boat more than two or three times over the course of the whole summer. That's because it's so vast with so many places to anchor in the millions of islands. That + Allemansrecht = cruising paradise!
Sound glorious. Maybe I should head east… Other areas I know well: the north shore of Lake Superior, or the St. Lawrence past Quebec City, or what I have seen of Newfoundland. Plenty of anchorages, and few (often no) other boats to be seen.

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But sometimes you just don't have any choice about a crowded anchorage -- where there are no islands, little shelter, and few choices. So you just have to make do sometimes. Good humor and tolerance are key.
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Old 06-03-2019, 17:27   #99
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Please don't use anchor buoys in anchorages shared with other people! It's very bad etiquette and a very bad practice which endangers other boats, on a par with laying lobster pots in a navigation channel.

If someone's boat goes on the rocks because their prop got entangled, it will be you paying, not them!

These should only be used for rocky bottoms, and places where there aren't other boats.
Not so fast, Dockhead. We were all alone when I anchored, and these were not actual anchorages.

You are also incorrect. If someone runs over a buoy - whether it is an anchor buoy, crab or shrimp pot marker - they are at fault. It is no different than you snagging someone's anchor rode while setting your own anchor. We use anchor buoys for safety, so if you hit one and drag a secured boat onto the rocks, you are liable. You may hate them, but that's the law.

We have buoys strewn throughout our bays during crab and shrimp season, and even more from the tribes setting wherever and whenever they feel the need. Some boats have line cutters, most don't. But we all hit them, regularly, myself included. I've just been fortunate enough not to catch any in my prop, ...knock on wood.

For the record, ..... The first one was off Observatory Point just west of Port Angeles, WA. We only found out what happened to our buoy from the WDFW fish checker at the dock when we got back. They reported hitting a crab pot buoy and thought they should report it. He also knew that the couple lived on their boat in the marina. We went to ask if they had any damage.

They were checking their crab pots, which were 4 of the 50 scattered some 50 yards south of us. It was still quite dark and somehow missed seeing our buoy. But of all the red and white crab pot buoys, they snagged a round red one. I know we had a pretty good scope out because of the tide and current there, so I wasn't surprised that they didn't know it was attached to an anchor. They gave is $20 for the buoy and some fresh cooked crab for our dinner. Nice people, ....but idiots none the less.

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The A2 was in Becher Bay, BC, in 20' of water. We had also thrown 2 crab pots off the stern, and each of them had a buoy too. But I admit, the A2 did look like a mooring buoy.

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Here in the PNW, we have a lot of rocky bottom bays all along the coast, and storms that blow in on a moment notice. Many here use an anchor buoy, ....but after my experiences, I set 2 anchors instead.
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Old 06-03-2019, 22:31   #100
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Not so fast, Dockhead. We were all alone when I anchored, and these were not actual anchorages.

I wasn't there, so not judging you, or this particular case. As I said, I have used anchor buoys myself, specifically for retrieving the anchor if it gets stuck in a rocky bottom, but never when other boats are around.


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You are also incorrect. If someone runs over a buoy - whether it is an anchor buoy, crab or shrimp pot marker - they are at fault.

Not true as a matter of law. If the buoy is set illegitimately or in a negligent manner -- for example in a navigation channel, or in a marked anchorage, or in close proximity to other vessels -- you will be liable for damage caused by others getting tangled in it.



This is also true of other vessels getting tangled in your anchor rode, if you anchor in an illegitimate or unseamanlike way. You've got no "right", to throw anchors or buoys wherever you please, without considering the effect on other vessels. No one owns the seabed (except in the UK, where it's the Queen ). In fact you've got no "right" whatsoever at sea, the exercise of which may endanger other vessels -- leave such ideas on land.



Another thing to consider is the risk that your own anchor will be tripped, if someone snags your buoy. I've seen a boat go on the rocks when this happened, with horrendous damage. Putting what is in effect a tripping line on your own anchor in a place where there is a risk that others will run over the buoy and trip your anchor, is about as unseamanlike, and in fact, idiotic, a move as you could possibly do in an anchoring situation.



Don't use anchor buoys ever, in marked anchorages, or where there are other boats. It is a really lubberly, irresponsible, unseamanlike, and inconsiderate move.





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It is no different than you snagging someone's anchor rode while setting your own anchor. We use anchor buoys for safety, so if you hit one and drag a secured boat onto the rocks, you are liable. You may hate them, but that's the law.

Speaking as a lawyer with some experience in this area, this is an incorrect statement of the law. Fault in maritime accidents is never this cut and dried.


I can also tell you that if you set an anchor buoy in a crowded anchorage and someone suffers damage as a result of getting tangled in it, and your boat goes on the rocks because your anchor got tripped, and I'm representing the other boat, the following will happen:


1. You will be paying for the damage to your own boat out of your own pocket, as neither my client nor my client's insurance company nor, most likely, your own insurance company will pay.


2. Your insurance will be paying for the damage to my client's boat.


Word to the wise!





By all means, use an anchor buoy on rocky bottoms -- as I said, I do this myself (or used to, see below). But do not use an anchor buoy with a sense of entitlement, and without a care about how your buoy may endanger other vessels. You have no entitlement, and you are not free of responsibility for damage you may cause.




A really good general rule to keep in mind about maritime law, and more importantly, maritime custom -- is that if you are involved in some kind of maritime accident, it practically never "not my problem". Everyone at sea has at all times a responsibility to think about other vessels and take measures to prevent accidents. That's why there is, for example, no such thing as "right of way" at sea. Even if someone hits your vessel while you are at anchor, there are abundant legal precedents for the anchored vessel sharing liability. The phrases "not my problem" and "his fault" and "my right" should be wiped from your vocabulary, when you leave the land.






* Concerning technique -- I did stop using anchor buoys a few years ago when I figured out a better and safer way to rig a tripping line. What I do now is to rig a dyneema line which runs up the anchor chain, attached every 6 meters or so with a very light cable tie. In case of need, a sharp pull on the tripping line breaks the cable ties, and Bob's your uncle. This is a better way to do it because it eliminates the risk of your anchor getting tripped when you don't want it to, and doesn't endanger other vessels.
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Old 06-03-2019, 23:22   #101
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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...Don't use anchor buoys ever, in marked anchorages, or where there are other boats. It is a really lubberly, irresponsible, unseamanlike, and inconsiderate move. ...


There are specific situations where an anchor buoy is a good idea, there is no good reason for their general use. Whatever benefit you think they might impart is outweigh by the risk they pose to you, and to others.

Beside that, in a busy anchorage they carve out a larger space for your boat than is safely required, potentially blocking others from anchoring safely.

I do deploy an anchor buoy on specific occasions, mostly when I assess there is real risk of snagging my anchor. But these are always remote anchorages with no other boats around.
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Old 07-03-2019, 00:04   #102
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

As DH said, there's not a reason for a buoy ever. Just run a sinking trip line back to the boat. Don't need more than 10-12 meters usually, easy to use, easy to retrieve.
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Old 07-03-2019, 00:40   #103
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Fortunately, I've never anchored in crowds.
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Old 07-03-2019, 00:56   #104
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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By all means, use an anchor buoy on rocky bottoms -- as I said, I do this myself (or used to, see below). But do not use an anchor buoy with a sense of entitlement, and without a care about how your buoy may endanger other vessels. You have no entitlement, and you are not free of responsibility for damage you may cause.
I agree that it is never cut and dry. I also believe that using an anchor marker/buoy has more to do with our safety than the liability of using one. Where we boat, using an anchor buoy/marker is never about entitlement. It actually helps other boaters.

When we pull into a rocky bottom area, not only will an anchor buoy keep us from losing our anchor, but more importantly, it shows other boats exactly where our rode/chain is so they won't drag over it. It also shows our maximum turning radius, and we can put a waypoint on its exact location, as well as our neighbors. If there is an anchor drag, we will all know and respond accordingly.

I would be hard pressed to tell anyone around here that their anchor buoy is a hazard and needs to go.

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* Concerning technique -- I did stop using anchor buoys a few years ago when I figured out a better and safer way to rig a tripping line. What I do now is to rig a dyneema line which runs up the anchor chain, attached every 6 meters or so with a very light cable tie. In case of need, a sharp pull on the tripping line breaks the cable ties, and Bob's your uncle. This is a better way to do it because it eliminates the risk of your anchor getting tripped when you don't want it to, and doesn't endanger other vessels.
Again, if it was about clearing your anchor, I agree. But a trip line is no better than just the rode/chain if people don't know where your anchor and rode are when they are about to anchor.

The reason I went with 2 anchors is because my boat sits in the middle of 2 - 5:1 all chain scopes. So, my boat swings to a tight circle in the center of both, which is more like I was on a mooring buoy, and a fraction of the circle of a boat on one anchor. It also won't pull and need to reset when the tide and current shifts.

I would also be happy to mark both of my anchors so people could set parallel to mine.

I wish everyone would do this and we would have 4 times the occupancy in our busier anchorages.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:17   #105
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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I agree that it is never cut and dry. I also believe that using an anchor marker/buoy has more to do with our safety than the liability of using one. Where we boat, using an anchor buoy/marker is never about entitlement. It actually helps other boaters.

When we pull into a rocky bottom area, not only will an anchor buoy keep us from losing our anchor, but more importantly, it shows other boats exactly where our rode/chain is so they won't drag over it. It also shows our maximum turning radius, and we can put a waypoint on its exact location, as well as our neighbors. If there is an anchor drag, we will all know and respond accordingly.. . . .

Maybe, but only in anchorages which are so large and so uncrowded, that other boats are able to stay so far away from your ground tackle that they never swing near the buoy.


But even so, don't you care about the risk of someone tripping your anchor? It does not require being an "idiot", to run over a buoy in the dark, or even to swing over it with the tide, and you may find yourself adrift or already on the rocks.




The problem with using an anchor buoy in a normal anchorage is that while boats swing together, a buoy stays put. This makes conflict almost inevitable when other boats are present with any degree of crowding. It is absolutely normal for boats to swing over each other's ground tackle, and if they were forced to stay so far away from each other that they couldn't, then 80% of the potential anchoring room in the anchorage would be lost. An anchor buoy amongst a bay full of anchored boats is a real menace -- it is really easy to get inadvertently tangled with it while backing or maneuvering, or you just swing into it when the tide changes.




Nobody needs to be shown where your anchor is. Any experienced sailor will have a plenty good idea from how your boat is lying, and anyway it's more or less irrelevant -- it's perfectly normal for boats to swing over each other's ground tackle. And you don't need a buoy for a tripping line, as others have stated. Using an anchor buoy is less bad in uncrowded places (truly heinous behavior in a crowded anchorage, however), but I don't think it's every really needed, nor is it ever really decent seamanship to use one, in my opinion.
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