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Old 25-03-2019, 10:27   #226
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I think, quite logically so that almost always fault is shared.
From my understanding, you can be out of a channel, anchored in a designated anchorage, displaying an anchor ball and anchor light and be hit by a passing boat, and may still share some blame.

Sounds crazy, I guess it’s based on maybe you didn’t blow your aural signal, contact on radio, or move yourself to a avoid the collision?. . .



Your understanding is correct. And that is generally how the collision regulations work, not just in regard to anchoring.



At sea is different from on land:


* Another vessel's obligations don't create any kind of rights of yours whatsoever.


* You are always responsible for the safety of your vessel and doing everything necessary to avoid a collision, and you have no right to assume that other vessels will follow the Rules.



* In case of a collision, with very rare exceptions, EVERYONE is guilty (is some proportion or another), even when one vessel is at anchor. That's because the Rules are designed so that a collision can't occur except when BOTH vessels are violating them.





So give up land-based ideas of privileges and rights -- you don't have any privileges or rights at sea, you have only obligations.
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Old 25-03-2019, 10:46   #227
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
...I strongly believe that in a case of something like two boats hitting at anchor, who is at fault will most often be the one with the least expensive lawyer.


I think THIS is the real truth — at least in the so called “developed world.”

But my understanding is that all vessels share in the responsibility to avoid collision. This is true underway, and also at anchor. No one has “the right of way” or “the right to control an anchorage” regardless of who was first in.

Everyone has a responsibility to, in this case, anchor safely and appropriately. The only special feature the ‘first boat in’ has is that it becomes part of the physical characteristics that future boats must take into account when deciding how they anchor.

And I appreciate your approach Woody. When a new boat comes into an anchorage, I make myself available and offer information and advice when asked, or when possible. I don’t try to be pushy or nosey, but I try and be available to assist if I can. I find that those who clearly know what they’re doing tend to be the ones who ask questions. It’s the ones who actively avoid seeking information that get my anchor-sense tingling. My default assumption is that most boaters know what they’re doing. Of course, once it becomes obvious someone doesn’t, I get very focused on their actions.

When I come into a busy anchorage I try and speak with those already there. I ask them about their rode, their anchor location, and also if they have any other general advice regarding the bottom or holding or whatever. It gains me valuable information, and it’s a good way to make a personal connection.
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Old 25-03-2019, 12:34   #228
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Excellent attitude and excellent seamanship I'll share an anchorage with you any day.
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Old 25-03-2019, 12:36   #229
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post


I think THIS is the real truth — at least in the so called “developed world.”

Well, it's always good to have a good lawyer, but rarely is a good lawyer able to get you off the hook, if the fundamental legal basis for your being on the hook, exists. And the statement below by Mike very well sums up the "fundamental legal basis":




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But my understanding is that all vessels share in the responsibility to avoid collision. This is true underway, and also at anchor. No one has “the right of way” or “the right to control an anchorage” regardless of who was first in.

Everyone has a responsibility to, in this case, anchor safely and appropriately. The only special feature the ‘first boat in’ has is that it becomes part of the physical characteristics that future boats must take into account when deciding how they anchor.. . .

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Old 25-03-2019, 12:40   #230
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

I'll type it again

he who is the most scare ............................ should move
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Old 25-03-2019, 12:47   #231
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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I'll type it again

he who is the most scared ............................ should move

That's actually a wise comment.


You can be more scared for one of two reasons -- either you understand less than the other boat, so you are unreasonably scared, or you understand more, so the other boat is insufficiently concerned.



Either way -- it means you have to move
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Old 25-03-2019, 13:31   #232
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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...I think it's really important not to forget that at the end of the day, it is you and only you who are responsible for the safety of your boat, and even if it's a massive PITA, and unfair because you were there first, you might really have to move or go back out to sea if someone anchored at an unsafe distance and refuses to move. The really important thing to remember is that you have no right to just stay put and wait for the collision....

Let me start by saying your post was well written and well reasoned... before I offer a different view.


What if I believe, in my sole, that up-anchoring and moving is more risky than staying put? I was there first, I believe a collision is possible but not probable, and that collision could cause property damage, but not a danger to health. My alternative is to go to sea, in failing light and deteriorating conditions, which I believe is not likely to be very dangerous, but the risk of serious harm is greater. Perhaps there is a HUGE thunderstorm 15 minutes away, and I believe I am safer hunkered down right where I am. Additionally, my anchor has been soaking in all afternoon and is well set. If I move just 100 feet my anchor will not have been set as long, which is a problem in soft mud. In that case I will be "that guy" that is dragging. So I chose not to move. I can think of countless scenarios, in a rising storm, where I might chose to risk a bump rather than hazard my boat and crew.



In other words, I may NOT feel that moving is safer, even though I recognize a bump is possible. In this situation I do not feel there is shared fault because I believe moving is more dangerous, in total, than staying. I cannot be expected to move, if I believe that moving actually increases the total risk. Most anchorage bumps are non-damaging if fenders are deployed, just stressful. Maybe I do have the right to wait, if I feel that is the safest course.

(I'm not talking about nuisance moves, but situations where some additional factor makes moving more risky than bumps.)

-----


Which raises an issue we have tap danced around. Should I (and to what extent) take on risk to reduce yours? How do I weight, whether my risk from moving is greater than the risk of a tiny bump? Most days, I can safely move... but not always.

Thornier yet, perhaps the new arrival fears declining weather. He knows he might bump, but he fears the storm (right or wrong) more. Is he wrong to squeeze in? I'm not sure, but I do believe he has accepted all liability (which is different from being wrong) by his decision.
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Old 25-03-2019, 14:01   #233
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When neighboring boat disagrees

You know why I think the USCG calls us old retired non professional mariners Captain?
It’s not a compliment. It’s their way of reminding us that ultimately we are responsible for everything that occurs on our vessels.

As a Career pilot I learned very early that no matter how the accident occurred, it’s pilot error. If it was a design defect and broke, well you didn’t discover it on pre-flight.
If ATC vectors you into bad weather that the aircraft can’t handle, you didn’t refuse.

It’s called Pilot in Command, and on our boats, being the “Captain” means your pilot in Command, the buck stops here.

What I am saying is you have to make the decision, and stand by it.

The picture I posted with the powerboat all over the sailboat, the sailboat up anchored and went across the bay and anchored there.

I think even a poor Laywer could show that by putting out fenders, you knowingly left your boat in a position that it was likely to come into contact with another.
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Old 25-03-2019, 14:57   #234
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Which raises an issue we have tap danced around. Should I (and to what extent) take on risk to reduce yours? How do I weight, whether my risk from moving is greater than the risk of a tiny bump? Most days, I can safely move... but not always.

Thornier yet, perhaps the new arrival fears declining weather. He knows he might bump, but he fears the storm (right or wrong) more. Is he wrong to squeeze in? I'm not sure, but I do believe he has accepted all liability (which is different from being wrong) by his decision.
Totally understand and agree with your point and I voiced a similar scenario when DH seemed to imply that You as the first boat MUST move If you feel latecomer is too near....and to be Nice about it, rather than to pressure latecomer to re-anchor safely.


A64 nailed it....You are in command and so is latecomer in command of his boat.

You make the decision as to what is the least risk
....and if you decide to stay put.... consign yourself to a sleepless night on anchor watch and crew briefed on worst case scenario if latecomer drags into you.

Where I differ from DH is that I would let Latecomer know he has put me into this difficult position and brief him on what we should do IF he stretches into me and that I will sound "Danger Signal" if he comes within 15' with a strong wind.

Dockhead, part of being a good Captain is to intimidate bad ones, to take responsibility for their actions.
Legal or not, Nice or not, that is reality
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Old 25-03-2019, 15:01   #235
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
... I think even a poor Laywer could show that by putting out fenders, you knowingly left your boat in a position that it was likely to come into contact with another.

And if the alternative was heading out into bad weather to avoid the boat that "may" have anchored too close? I could easily argue that heading out could be bad seamanship. Hanging fenders was prudence.


So no, I do NOT buy the premise that you should always move. The aviation equivalent might be taking off into a storm to avoid the chance of hail damage on the tarmac. A prudent pilot would stay on the ground, accepting the lesser of two evils. No, he cannot prove flying would be more dangerous. I should not have to prove that leaving is more dangerous (which I could only do by having an accident), only defend the reasonableness of my reasoning for staying put.
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Old 25-03-2019, 15:16   #236
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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What if I believe, in my sole, that up-anchoring and moving is more risky than staying put? I was there first, I believe a collision is possible but not probable, and that collision could cause property damage, but not a danger to health. My alternative is to go to sea, in failing light and deteriorating conditions, which I believe is not likely to be very dangerous, but the risk of serious harm is greater. ...
The exact same circumstances would apparently apply to the second anchored in your scenario. They deem it safer to close-anchor than to be out there. They assess the risk to be lower, even with a possible bump in the night, which they deem to be unlikely.

The responsibilities remain the same; anchor as safely as the circumstances allow.
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Old 25-03-2019, 15:21   #237
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Let me start by saying your post was well written and well reasoned... before I offer a different view.


What if I believe, in my sole, that up-anchoring and moving is more risky than staying put? I was there first, I believe a collision is possible but not probable, and that collision could cause property damage, but not a danger to health. My alternative is to go to sea, in failing light and deteriorating conditions, which I believe is not likely to be very dangerous, but the risk of serious harm is greater. Perhaps there is a HUGE thunderstorm 15 minutes away, and I believe I am safer hunkered down right where I am. Additionally, my anchor has been soaking in all afternoon and is well set. If I move just 100 feet my anchor will not have been set as long, which is a problem in soft mud. In that case I will be "that guy" that is dragging. So I chose not to move. I can think of countless scenarios, in a rising storm, where I might chose to risk a bump rather than hazard my boat and crew.



In other words, I may NOT feel that moving is safer, even though I recognize a bump is possible. In this situation I do not feel there is shared fault because I believe moving is more dangerous, in total, than staying. I cannot be expected to move, if I believe that moving actually increases the total risk. Most anchorage bumps are non-damaging if fenders are deployed, just stressful. Maybe I do have the right to wait, if I feel that is the safest course.

(I'm not talking about nuisance moves, but situations where some additional factor makes moving more risky than bumps.)

-----


Which raises an issue we have tap danced around. Should I (and to what extent) take on risk to reduce yours? How do I weight, whether my risk from moving is greater than the risk of a tiny bump? Most days, I can safely move... but not always.

Thornier yet, perhaps the new arrival fears declining weather. He knows he might bump, but he fears the storm (right or wrong) more. Is he wrong to squeeze in? I'm not sure, but I do believe he has accepted all liability (which is different from being wrong) by his decision.



That's an interesting and instructive scenario, well illustrating how hard some of these decisions can be, but you fall out of principles of maritime law when you start talking about "accepted all liability". That just doesn't happen at sea. In fact, if his decision was the most reasonable under the circumstances, and excellent seamanship was shown, and if you then also demonstrate that it would have been unreasonable for you to move, a court might very well judge that both of you cover your own damages. Who came first or second is not likely to play a big role.



A somewhat similar situation -- if a boat breaks free of her dock lines in a marina in a storm, and crashes into your boat while you are not on board, and sinks her -- the owner of the other boat is not normally liable in the absence of some proven lack of proper tying up -- each owner covers own damages.



The really important point -- coming first does not give you any privilege whatsoever. It is a mistake to think that just because someone who comes second has certain obligations, that you have some kind of corresponding right. You do not.
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Old 25-03-2019, 16:54   #238
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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The really important point -- coming first does not give you any privilege whatsoever. It is a mistake to think that just because someone who comes second has certain obligations, that you have some kind of corresponding right. You do not.
Partially agreed, but the really Really important point is "Seamanship".

Just as in COLREGS 2a

"Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel,

or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the

consequences of any neglect to comply with these

Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which

may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen,

or by the special circumstances of the case."

Deviating from those Rules as allowed in 2b by latecomer by not maintaining a proper CPA ..Will have legal weight if the first boat "Notes Protest" as I advocate.

The analogy of unattended boats at a marina is not accurate. There is no onus on Watchkeeping/Lookout.

1. Note protest to Latecomer that they are positioning within an unsafe CPA and that they must maintain a continuous Anchor Watch....Log it in Pen

2 Log your own Anchor Watch schedule and weather conditions.

3. Log when you sound Danger Signal and subsequent actions by Latecomer and yourself.

I know this sounds extreme, but when 'Lawyers" see your formal approach to warning their captain client to act in a safe manner, they will usually recommend out of court settlement.
Happens all the time in commercial maritime events, which is why professionals are taught to document.
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Old 25-03-2019, 17:19   #239
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

I think it was Fatty Goodlander that said it is not worth even getting into an argument with them, on who is right or wrong. It is better to just pull your anchor and move.

Never argue with an Idiot they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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Old 25-03-2019, 21:36   #240
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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I think it was Fatty Goodlander that said it is not worth even getting into an argument with them, on who is right or wrong. It is better to just pull your anchor and move.

Never argue with an Idiot they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Agree, but the scenario we are debating, is when you do not have the option to move without incurring greater risk.
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