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Old 21-03-2019, 01:25   #211
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
. . . The always difficult part with some late coming bozo, is deciding when you need to move if they remain stubborn

But maybe not so difficult if you take the attitude that you are always responsible for the safety of your own boat, not some other sailor, whether he came earlier, later, or whatever.


If you don't like the way another boat is lying in relation to yours, you don't have the right to just stay where you are and wait for a collision. To count on how unpleasant you are at 03:00 when you feel wronged. This is unseamanlike. If you don't like it, and the other boat doesn't seem inclined to move, you move yourself. If you judge the situation to be unsafe, you MUST move.



Even the legal position requires this. It is the law the the later vessel must anchor in a way to keep clear of earlier anchored vessels. But it is also the law that the earlier anchored vessel must do everything necessary to prevent a collision, without regard to what later coming vessels did or did not do. If you judge the situation to be unsafe, you MUST move. You are always responsible for the safety of your own vessel. If you fail to do so, and the other boat collides with you, you will share the legal responsibility for the collision.
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Old 21-03-2019, 01:32   #212
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
] )

The always difficult part with some late coming bozo, is deciding when you need to move if they remain stubborn
The advantage of the style of vessel we have.

65 tonne says well usually come out in front.
Photographic evidence of too close anchorers gives us details to lay a claim against.
Our paint is 3 years old, and could do with a freshen up, come and hit us, I dare you.
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Old 21-03-2019, 05:09   #213
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When neighboring boat disagrees

There were four of us sailboats anchored in an out of the way small cove, that has poor holding, then yesterday all at once five powerboats showed up and started moving around and anchoring dinghy on top of the boats that were already there. They have to be in one group.
Most had the way too small pretty SS delta on the bow, only one tried backing down, the rest just dropped, the one that tried backing down had a too small Rocna and kept dragging it. I donít know if they ever got it to hook or just quit trying.
They ran two of the sailboats off, I wonder if that was their intent?
This picture is not where the guy dropped, itís where he ended up, and wasnít apparently going to move.Click image for larger version

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Old 21-03-2019, 06:12   #214
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
There were four of us sailboats anchored in an out of the way small cove, that has poor holding, then yesterday all at once five powerboats showed up and started moving around and anchoring dinghy on top of the boats that were already there. They have to be in one group.
Most had the way too small pretty SS delta on the bow, only one tried backing down, the rest just dropped, the one that tried backing down had a too small Rocna and kept dragging it. I donít know if they ever got it to hook or just quit trying.
They ran two of the sailboats off, I wonder if that was their intent?
This picture is not where the guy dropped, itís where he ended up, and wasnít apparently going to move.Attachment 188438
Looks like a great argument for keeping large bolt cutters on board.
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Old 21-03-2019, 06:15   #215
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Re in Key West waiting. Any long term cruiser has experienced this scenario. I always knew there might be a problem if an incoming vessel failed to look behind before dropping the hook. Still most people have screwed up an anchoring. The important issue is do they recognize same and re-anchor? No? then there is a problem.
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Old 21-03-2019, 06:59   #216
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
But maybe not so difficult if you take the attitude that you are always responsible for the safety of your own boat, not some other sailor, whether he came earlier, later, or whatever.


If you don't like the way another boat is lying in relation to yours, you don't have the right to just stay where you are and wait for a collision. To count on how unpleasant you are at 03:00 when you feel wronged. This is unseamanlike. If you don't like it, and the other boat doesn't seem inclined to move, you move yourself. If you judge the situation to be unsafe, you MUST move.



Even the legal position requires this. It is the law the the later vessel must anchor in a way to keep clear of earlier anchored vessels. But it is also the law that the earlier anchored vessel must do everything necessary to prevent a collision, without regard to what later coming vessels did or did not do. If you judge the situation to be unsafe, you MUST move. You are always responsible for the safety of your own vessel. If you fail to do so, and the other boat collides with you, you will share the legal responsibility for the collision.
Dockhead,
No one is disputing where the responsibility lies in protecting your own vessel......

The other late comming boat probably encroached because it offered a bit more protection from fetch and swell, or convenience to a beach landing.

The reality is that often there is no other protected or comfortable spot to anchor in that harbour and evening is approaching.

Yes you can cancel your dinner and get your boat ready to go to Sea in a seaman like manner

But before one takes that safest option , why not try every trick in the book to force a late commer to find a more open spot?

Luckily, we don't get charterers where I cruise and I see very few other yachts.

I also prefer to stop at open anchorages, if the weather is stable to enjoy my solitude
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However, if a person is encroached upon at 16:00, in an obviously unsafe swinging circle.... They should let their feelings be known in a pleasant but very persuasive way!
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Old 21-03-2019, 07:17   #217
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Dockhead,
No one is disputing where the responsibility lies in protecting your own vessel......

The other late comming boat probably encroached because it offered a bit more protection from fetch and swell, or convenience to a beach landing.

The reality is that often there is no other protected or comfortable spot to anchor in that harbour and evening is approaching.

Yes you can cancel your dinner and get your boat ready to go to Sea in a seaman like manner

But before one takes that safest option , why not try every trick in the book to force a late commer to find a more open spot?

Luckily, we don't get charterers where I cruise and I see very few other yachts.

I also prefer to stop at open anchorages, if the weather is stable to enjoy my solitude
Attachment 188451Attachment 188452

However, if a person is encroached upon at 16:00, in an obviously unsafe swinging circle.... They should let their feelings be known in a pleasant but very persuasive way!

I understand and agree.


But my experience is that two skippers often have very different judgement about what is a safe distance for anchoring, and that persuading another skipper to accept your judgement is often impossible.


I've been on both sides of that, and if I'm the later coming boat, and I get scolded by a skipper who has an unreasonable idea of safe distance (like -- swinging circles shouldn't overlap at all), I might not agree to move myself, particularly if there is no good other place to go.


So while certainly it could be worth a conversation with the other skipper, I think it's really important not to forget that at the end of the day, it is you and only you who are responsible for the safety of your boat, and even if it's a massive PITA, and unfair because you were there first, you might really have to move or go back out to sea if someone anchored at an unsafe distance and refuses to move. The really important thing to remember is that you have no right to just stay put and wait for the collision.



The fact that you were there first, that you saw the danger, that you warned the other skipper, that you tried to persuade the other skipper, that the other skipper is a moron, etc. etc. etc. -- will not relieve you of responsibility in case there is a collision. This is a concept which in my experience, very many sailors don't fully understand.
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Old 21-03-2019, 08:10   #218
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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...The fact that you were there first, that you saw the danger, that you warned the other skipper, that you tried to persuade the other skipper, that the other skipper is a moron, etc. etc. etc. -- will not relieve you of responsibility in case there is a collision. This is a concept which in my experience, very many sailors don't fully understand.
For clarity (b/c Iím trying to learn): in this scenario, who is at legal fault? Is this going to fall into a shared-fault ruling?
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Old 21-03-2019, 08:35   #219
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
For clarity (b/c Iím trying to learn): in this scenario, who is at legal fault? Is this going to fall into a shared-fault ruling?



Me, too. In most all if not all of the "cases" I've read, "shared-fault" seems to be the norm not the exception.
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Old 21-03-2019, 08:35   #220
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

I've been on both sides of that, and if I'm the later coming boat, and I get scolded by a skipper who has an unreasonable idea of safe distance (like -- swinging circles shouldn't overlap at all), I might not agree to move myself, particularly if there is no good other place to go.
That is normal, you discuss and monitor if re positioning options are limited.

This is where Radar can be helpful when anchoring.

Plotting and marking the anchor down position from a parallel index line to shore as well as the chart plotter, you then measure and record the distance you stretched out when first setting anchor to that scope.

A Radar's VRM can then be set to show your swing range

A second VRM set at half the swing range is your warning guide, if a boat drops anchor inside that smaller VRM.

Making careful notes of all these anchoring details in the Log, will have legal benefits..
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Old 25-03-2019, 09:20   #221
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Anyone yelling anything but encouragement in an anchorage, we all recognize as an inexperienced boater. The first to anchor has no rights. They set precedent to how incoming boats should anchor; single, double, Bahamian, stern to a tree, amount of scope etc.
If they didn't put their anchor on top of yours and used similar scope, they are unlikely to hit you when all swing. If you don't like how someone anchors or the proximity of their boat to yours, it's on you to move.
If all boats swing and the second boat bumps you, they are responsible for your damage, if perceptible. If either boat drags, that boat is responsible for damage.
When wind and water are calm and boats are pointed in all directions, it's hard to determine where anchors are. As a courtesy, I will sometimes offer that info to an incoming boat. It's info that I would want. Unless you put your anchor on top of my anchor, you won't hear from me.
There's a lot to anchoring and there are people that didn't study before they headed out of the marina. The guy that drops 2 to 1 and doesn't back down well, I pop on deck when I hear the wind kick up to watch the show. Almost always, the damage occurs to the boat dragging.
A lot happens in an anchorage with tide and wind and boats often end up near each other. The only way to nearly guarantee privacy is to sail further afield.
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Old 25-03-2019, 09:30   #222
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Anyone yelling anything but encouragement in an anchorage, we all recognize as an inexperienced boater. The first to anchor has no rights. They set precedent to how incoming boats should anchor; single, double, Bahamian, stern to a tree, amount of scope etc.
If they didn't put their anchor on top of yours and used similar scope, they are unlikely to hit you when all swing. If you don't like how someone anchors or the proximity of their boat to yours, it's on you to move.
If all boats swing and the second boat bumps you, they are responsible for your damage, if perceptible. If either boat drags, that boat is responsible for damage.
When wind and water are calm and boats are pointed in all directions, it's hard to determine where anchors are. As a courtesy, I will sometimes offer that info to an incoming boat. It's info that I would want. Unless you put your anchor on top of my anchor, you won't hear from me.
There's a lot to anchoring and there are people that didn't study before they headed out of the marina. The guy that drops 2 to 1 and doesn't back down well, I pop on deck when I hear the wind kick up to watch the show. Almost always, the damage occurs to the boat dragging.
A lot happens in an anchorage with tide and wind and boats often end up near each other. The only way to nearly guarantee privacy is to sail further afield.
all boats does not swing the same, cats have a different windage, boats use individual scope of chain, some have more than one anchor out and the depth is not equal either. You have to keep clear from others or pay for the damage you cause, if you ignore warnings, even worse for you, because you cause the damage knowingly and not accidently.
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Old 25-03-2019, 10:09   #223
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
That is normal, you discuss and monitor if re positioning options are limited.

This is where Radar can be helpful when anchoring.

Plotting and marking the anchor down position from a parallel index line to shore as well as the chart plotter, you then measure and record the distance you stretched out when first setting anchor to that scope.


Radar guard zone is also a terrific anchor alarm (or supplementary one), warning you against swinging too close to obstructions as well as to other boats which come into your intimate circle of interest.


A Radar's VRM can then be set to show your swing range

A second VRM set at half the swing range is your warning guide, if a boat drops anchor inside that smaller VRM.

Making careful notes of all these anchoring details in the Log, will have legal benefits..

Indeed! Radar is fantastic for these situations. This is one place where the CW type (non-pulse) radars excel, because they have no main bang, and have really good performance at close ranges. I use the VRM and parallel index lines in exactly this way



I also like to drop a waypoint where I drop my anchor (more or less valuable depending on whether the anchor goes straight into the bottom), but often in tidal waters it's very obvious where the anchor is -- from the shape of the swinging arc.
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Old 25-03-2019, 10:15   #224
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When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
For clarity (b/c Iím trying to learn): in this scenario, who is at legal fault? Is this going to fall into a shared-fault ruling?


I think, quite logically so that almost always fault is shared.
From my understanding, you can be out of a channel, anchored in a designated anchorage, displaying an anchor ball and anchor light and be hit by a passing boat, and may still share some blame.

Sounds crazy, I guess itís based on maybe you didnít blow your aural signal, contact on radio, or move yourself to a avoid the collision?
No idea really, but I strongly believe that in a case of something like two boats hitting at anchor, who is at fault will most often be the one with the least expensive lawyer.
Sorry if that is cynical, but Iíve heard too many stories about being damaged by a Super Yacht and not recouping from it.

You would assume that if your little sail boat were crushed at a dock by a Mega that the owner would have a check in the mail to buy your boat as their monthly operating costs exceed your value, but Iíve not heard of that.

Sorry if Iím being cynical
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Old 25-03-2019, 10:17   #225
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by captainwoody View Post
Anyone yelling anything but encouragement in an anchorage, we all recognize as an inexperienced boater.

Indeed!



Quote:
Originally Posted by captainwoody View Post
The first to anchor has no rights. . . .

A very true and very important thing to understand






Quote:
Originally Posted by captainwoody View Post
If they didn't put their anchor on top of yours and used similar scope, they are unlikely to hit you when all swing. If you don't like how someone anchors or the proximity of their boat to yours, it's on you to move.

Yes.



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Originally Posted by captainwoody View Post
If all boats swing and the second boat bumps you, they are responsible for your damage, if perceptible. If either boat drags, that boat is responsible for damage.

That seems basically fair, but just note, that if it goes to court, it won't be that simple, and generally all parties will share at least part of the blame.


Once again -- you do not have the right to stay where you are and wait for the collision. If you don't like the way someone else anchored, who came later than you, and you can't persuade them (politely, please) to move, then it is truly "on you to move", failing which, you may share the damages in case of a collision.



You don't have any rights just because you came earlier -- that is crucial to understand. The later boat has an obligation to anchor safely in relation to you, but that doesn't give you any rights. And the earlier boat also has an obligation to ensure that the anchorage is safe -- and an actual obligation to move, in case he judges the situation to be unsafe.






Quote:
Originally Posted by captainwoody View Post
When wind and water are calm and boats are pointed in all directions, it's hard to determine where anchors are. As a courtesy, I will sometimes offer that info to an incoming boat. It's info that I would want. Unless you put your anchor on top of my anchor, you won't hear from me.
There's a lot to anchoring and there are people that didn't study before they headed out of the marina. The guy that drops 2 to 1 and doesn't back down well, I pop on deck when I hear the wind kick up to watch the show. Almost always, the damage occurs to the boat dragging.
A lot happens in an anchorage with tide and wind and boats often end up near each other. The only way to nearly guarantee privacy is to sail further afield.

Excellent attitude and excellent seamanship I'll share an anchorage with you any day.
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