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Old 09-03-2019, 02:11   #166
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Slight drift.


How do you deal with the "My anchor is under your boat" problem when it is time to go?


Just posing the question for discussion, no correct answer implied.



I've had to gently push boats by hand before, but it was never a problem. I didn't feel guilty, since they came later. If the anchor had been deeply set and the owners were not home it would have been more complicated.



I've also been places we rafted up to a bulkhead 2-3 deep. Challenging.

It's absolutely normal and no big deal if someone has to move a bit -- usually just hauling in a bit of chain, or letting it out -- so that someone can get an anchor up. It doesn't matter who came first or who came second. Help each other, folks!


One boat over someone else's anchor is trivial. Where it gets more complicated is if someone's chain is over someone else's chain. I keep an "anchor thief" device for dealing with this case. Never used it in 10 years, however -- I spend very little time in crowded anchorages.
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Old 09-03-2019, 02:27   #167
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Anchoring etuiquite is that whom ever was there first makes the call as to how close is too close. Many times I have moved out to the very outer edge of the anchorage to accommodate this rule, or moved on entirely, making an over nighter to the next anchorage.


Boats all behave differently, and have different tackle, like those with mostly line rides, requiring 7/1 scope. This is why what looks like enough room to another, a newcomer, is irrelevant.
. . .

This is a misunderstanding.



The rule is that whoever comes second is generally responsible if there is contact later, and that is a very different proposition from the first person "making the call".


The person who always "makes the call" of what is too close, is the person putting the anchor down -- so, the second person, not the first person.


If you are the second person, then of course it is good manners to pay attention if the first person thinks you are too close. I normally move in such a case, even if the "call" is unreasonable, because preserving the peace is a paramount value, but not always. What if the first person thinks a cable off is too close? What if the only other places to anchor are unsafe? As others have said, it is hard to judge distance on the water, and some people just don't have a clue about what is a safe distance.





There is no legal, ethical, or etiquettical rule that you have to obey the "call" of the first person anchored. In fact, you are not even allowed to do that, if doing so would result in reducing safety for you or others. You are in charge of your own vessel, and it is always your "call", because it is your responsibility.
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Old 09-03-2019, 02:34   #168
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Easy solution which is absolutely foolproof and always works! Simply get naked and go on deck. Suddenly you will have more than enough room to swing!
Never works when my wife is out there, generally have boats come in closer.
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Old 09-03-2019, 03:15   #169
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Old 09-03-2019, 06:12   #170
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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It's absolutely normal and no big deal if someone has to move a bit -- usually just hauling in a bit of chain, or letting it out -- so that someone can get an anchor up. It doesn't matter who came first or who came second. Help each other, folks!


One boat over someone else's anchor is trivial. Where it gets more complicated is if someone's chain is over someone else's chain. I keep an "anchor thief" device for dealing with this case. Never used it in 10 years, however -- I spend very little time in crowded anchorages.


Whatís an anchor thief device?
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Old 09-03-2019, 06:13   #171
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

I keep a golfers rangefinder on board, and when I have dropped the anchor I mark the position of each boat around us and the distance. As long as it is more than the chain you have out, all is good.
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:08   #172
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Once in a while we encounter -0ne- boat in anchorage that directs -every- new boat to some "great" spot with "good holding" anywhere but near his boat.
They are either inexperienced or overly paranoid. I have not yet found any way to talk to them.
There are helpful people who will point out nearby shoals or poor holding and it pays to hear them. But the paranoid boat will have good space around him so boat after boat will go there to anchor.
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:23   #173
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

All the more reason to have a shallow draft centerboard boat.
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:41   #174
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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It's absolutely normal and no big deal if someone has to move a bit -- usually just hauling in a bit of chain, or letting it out -- so that someone can get an anchor up. It doesn't matter who came first or who came second.



Actually, if he has gone into town, it is kind of a big deal. It's like double parking. There are places where it may be unavoidable, but in the US it is probably simple rudeness. I may have a weather window to hit. It may be O-dark-thirty and getting them out of bed will be either an operation or very unpleasant. I nearly always leave early.



Help each other, folks!


Of course! And one way you can do that is by understanding what "no vacancy" means. It means you need to go somewhere else, whether that suits your plans or not. Disappointing, yes, but if you went somewhere crowded, you planned for this, no?

I'm OK with overlapping swing circles, to a point. If you are over my anchor, that means you are overlapping 50%, which is probably too much, as you just proved. You have double parked without permission.
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:59   #175
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

In the end the answer is simple:


Cannons
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:07   #176
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Actually, if he has gone into town, it is kind of a big deal. It's like double parking. There are places where it may be unavoidable, but in the US it is probably simple rudeness. I may have a weather window to hit. It may be O-dark-thirty and getting them out of bed will be either an operation or very unpleasant. I nearly always leave early.. . . .

I'm OK with overlapping swing circles, to a point. If you are over my anchor, that means you are overlapping 50%, which is probably too much, as you just proved. You have double parked without permission.

Well, if he's not on board, that's actually the best situation of all You just put out fenders and push him out of the way as you get up to your anchor. It's really not a big deal.


50% overlapping is about the optimum in my experience when you need to pack in a lot of boats into a tight anchorage.



Let's talk for a moment about the geometry of swinging circles. If every boat swung exactly the same, on the exact same length of chain, you could space anchors one boat length apart, and there would be no contact.



Of course boats don't swing exactly alike, so you need a margin. I think one chain length of space on a normal scope, and if you have a decent idea that others are using reasonable scope, is absolutely sufficient. In crowded anchorages, I like to drop my anchor between the sterns of two boats ahead. That is a widely recommended practice, and in my experience it works great even with boats of quite different sizes etc.



That's about 50% overlap of swinging circles. Someone above posted something like -- if the others boats are at least as far away, as the amount of chain you have out, all is good. I completely agree with this -- that gives you exactly 50% overlap, and that is plenty. A conflict is almost impossible with that amount of space.



Click image for larger version

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http://sailmentor.com/wp-content/upl...our-anchor.jpg




If you come into an anchorage which is not yet full, but you know will be, it is really bad practice to anchor off two rode lengths away -- you force other boats to squeeze in between later. Better do it as depicted above to leave more room for others. The same anchorage can only accommodate 1/4 as many boats, anchored on touching but non-over lapping swinging circles, compared to 50% overlapping, that is, one rode length spacing.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:55   #177
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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Well, if he's not on board, that's actually the best situation of all You just put out fenders and push him out of the way as you get up to your anchor. It's really not a big deal.


In the US, that could start a lawsuit. Some folks are wound WAY too tight.


50% overlapping is about the optimum in my experience when you need to pack in a lot of boats into a tight anchorage.



Your illustration actually shows just LESS than 50% overlap, which I agree with. Just as you said. In your illustration, you cannot actually drift over an anchor.

I've been yelled at for moving a boat by hand. Just my palm. In stead of responding, I just said "It's OK" and finished my job and left.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:56   #178
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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50% overlapping is about the optimum in my experience when you need to pack in a lot of boats into a tight anchorage.

Let's talk for a moment about the geometry of swinging circles. If every boat swung exactly the same, on the exact same length of chain, you could space anchors one boat length apart, and there would be no contact.

Of course boats don't swing exactly alike, so you need a margin. I think one chain length of space on a normal scope, and if you have a decent idea that others are using reasonable scope, is absolutely sufficient. In crowded anchorages, I like to drop my anchor between the sterns of two boats ahead. That is a widely recommended practice, and in my experience it works great even with boats of quite different sizes etc.

That's about 50% overlap of swinging circles. Someone above posted something like -- if the others boats are at least as far away, as the amount of chain you have out, all is good. I completely agree with this -- that gives you exactly 50% overlap, and that is plenty. A conflict is almost impossible with that amount of space.
All fine and dandy if you are on a mud or sand bottom. We have rocks that snag chain.

Also, those who use a 50' chain and the rest laid nylon rode swing a much bigger circle here in the PNW than those using all chain.

Your idea about putting out as many fenders as we have is what many of us do.

But even more than the scope, we have a good many 'boaters' who believe they don't need to set their hook. These are the ones we look out for.

One I recall is a 48' cruiser with a Rocna anchor, and bragged that he never sets his hook because it grabs so quickly, even if the boat swings around with the tide. I've seen the videos, and they are all in sand and mud. No clue if they would even set and/or hold in rocks. I've even seen boats rafted up to him.

We have all kinds here.
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:35   #179
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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...One I recall is a 48' cruiser with a Rocna anchor, and bragged that he never sets his hook because it grabs so quickly, even if the boat swings around with the tide. I've seen the videos, and they are all in sand and mud....

This might even make a good thread:


If the assumption is that the anchor will rotate and reset, will it do this more reliably if deeply set, or will it rotate better if set more shallow?


I've studied this some and the results were mixed. With Fortress, set deep. With others, frankly, the results were mixed. Some times the deeply set anchor tripped and was so loaded with mud it didn't want to reset, while the lightly set anchor just turned. But most of the time, the results were the same either way.



I'm in the set-hard camp, mostly because unless I dive, it is the only way I know the bottom is capable of holding (might be 2" of sand over hard pan or similar).
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:01   #180
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Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

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. . . But even more than the scope, we have a good many 'boaters' who believe they don't need to set their hook. These are the ones we look out for.

One I recall is a 48' cruiser with a Rocna anchor, and bragged that he never sets his hook because it grabs so quickly, even if the boat swings around with the tide. I've seen the videos, and they are all in sand and mud. No clue if they would even set and/or hold in rocks. I've even seen boats rafted up to him.

We have all kinds here.



We had a guy on here who anchors by throwing the anchor out and going below to open a beer, and insisted loudly and long that this is excellent technique, because he has decades of experiences
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