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Old 07-04-2015, 10:00   #46
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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If that is a rule on the States it is not in Europe fortunately, at least yet.

I was not talking of making any offer, I was talking about surveying a a boat that has a given price. For having it surveyed I had to made a contract.

The results of the Survey are not necessarily agreeable in what regards the boat being on a condition the buyer finds acceptable. The Surveyor opinion will prevail contractually.

A surveyor can find acceptable that a boat with 20 years has this and that problem that are "normal" on a boat with that age and year and therefore states that the boat is on a good condition (for a boat with that age). Even if it is normal that a boat has those problems with that age you may not be interested on a boat with those problems...and if you give up you can lose your deposit.
That appears to be the confusion. Most people won't pay for a survey until they have looked over the boat themselves and made an offer. The survey is to confirm there are no hidden defects.

I can't see any situation where I would pay for a survey without an accepted offer, so I'm not too worried about your scenario.

If I did find myself in the strange situation of paying for a survey on a boat I didn't make an offer on... if I'm paying the surveyor, I can make clear what items I would consider unacceptable. If the surveyor doesn't agree up front, I get a different surveyor.
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Old 07-04-2015, 10:09   #47
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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That is very impressive but unfortunately not the rule. You would make a favor to the forum in posting the surveyor's name.
Marvin Henderson, a great surveyor and a fine gentleman, retired last year from practice in San Diego.
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Old 07-04-2015, 10:39   #48
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

I only had two boats surveyed but each time it was post-purchase and sale contract and each time the stipulation was "if the survey finds more than $X of new issues/problems, other than those observable by the buyer and/or disclosed by the seller". The first time, I was a real clueless newbie and my own inspection obviously was worthless, the surveyor found a bunch of things wrong which he called "home depot-ing" the boat as the seller was a very handy high school woodworking teacher and did very nice carpentry but totally non marine otherwise. So the electrical while very recent was house wire and fixtures and had to be totally replaced, some deck hardware was improperly installed and had to be re-bedded and reinstalled, etc. There was over $10K worth of repairs if done by the yard (probably under $6K if done by a moonlighting yard guy) so when the seller refused to knock off that much of the price I walked getting my $500 deposit back instantly.

The second time my $X stipulation was $1000+ and the surveyor said there was nothing really wrong with the boat other than stuff which needs replacement due to its age (which echoed the conclusions of my two marine-pro friends) but that was already factored in the price as the asking price was about 1/2 of same models on the market at the time. Although all of them missed a thing or two which probably would have saved me a grand or two but as it was I was happy with the purchase and in the long run splashing her in time to catch the rest of the season, as opposed to one more summer without a boat, was worth these few thousand bucks.
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Old 07-04-2015, 16:27   #49
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

I was called out as stating an opinion instead of fact so I want to state the facts that I know in an E & O case.

An individual that I didn't know at the time purchased a property that had numerous defects that were well known to many but was not disclosed to the buyer. Despite the defendants E&O insurance they offered no compensation or even would engage in a conversation about the deficiencies. The buyer sued and I was called in as an expert witness. The buyer won after a lengthy and costly court case. Then the defendants insurance company appealed which brought up more expense to the buyer. Eventually the case was settled but the buyer lost in the short and long run. I have stayed friends with the buyer decades later.

So as I stated earlier E&O insurance can mean very little to you if you are trying to correct a problem. In fact you may be battling an insurance company with very deep pockets.

This is a fact and not an opinion.
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Old 07-04-2015, 16:55   #50
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

He wouldn't be suing an insurance company, he would be suing the surveyor.
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Old 07-04-2015, 17:05   #51
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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He wouldn't be suing an insurance company, he would be suing the surveyor.
Arguing semantics. While it is true that he would be suing the surveyor the insurance company would be paying the damages minus the deductible so they would be the decisionators.
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Old 07-04-2015, 17:07   #52
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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Arguing semantics. While it is true that he would be suing the surveyor the insurance company would be paying the damages minus the deductible so they would be the decisionators.
Sorry, typo. I meant deciderators.
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Old 07-04-2015, 17:24   #53
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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I was called out as stating an opinion instead of fact so I want to state the facts that I know in an E & O case.

An individual that I didn't know at the time purchased a property that had numerous defects that were well known to many but was not disclosed to the buyer. Despite the defendants E&O insurance they offered no compensation or even would engage in a conversation about the deficiencies. The buyer sued and I was called in as an expert witness. The buyer won after a lengthy and costly court case. Then the defendants insurance company appealed which brought up more expense to the buyer. Eventually the case was settled but the buyer lost in the short and long run. I have stayed friends with the buyer decades later.

So as I stated earlier E&O insurance can mean very little to you if you are trying to correct a problem. In fact you may be battling an insurance company with very deep pockets.

This is a fact and not an opinion.
This is the problem with our so called "justice system" where the wrongdoer-seller is off the hook and the victim-buyer has to fight a costly battle and to come out even (at best) at the end.

BTW I personally think that the caveat emptor legalese should be discarded as an old relic of the past. Just as we discarded such once everyday concepts as slavery, witch trials, debtors prisons and the like.
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Old 07-04-2015, 22:25   #54
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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He did not do any research online about the make and model because it is a fairly common line. After I discovered that my upper rudder bearing was not attached to anything because the support had completely rusted away, I found several references to similar issues on similar boats very quickly with a simple search on Jeanneau and rudder.
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As pointed out...why didn't you check the facts before you even started looking at this line? We're hearing one side of the story. I would imagine that he told you some of the other things that the boat needed. As far as the cost of repairs...get use to it. Most people learn how to do their own repairs unless they want to pay over $100@hr. A rudder bearing repair might be above a few owners capabilities but othert repairs are not.

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Why are you mad at him? If it was so easy for you to find by searching, why didn't you do it before you even had the boat surveyed?
I just don't understand blaming someone else.
I've had lot's of boats now. Some I built from scratch and other derelicts. After awhile, I knew what to look for. I havn't always found it necessary to hire a surveyor. It's been a mixed bag when I did.
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:28   #55
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

I dont know about outside the USA, but every purchase and survey I've had has had the stipulation that the "inspection and survey are acceptable to the purchaser". You can reject buying the boat for most anything you want. You don't have to accept it being repaired by the seller.


Originally Posted by Stu Jackson
"Why are you mad at him? If it was so easy for you to find by searching, why didn't you do it before you even had the boat surveyed?
I just don't understand blaming someone else."



Because you pay the surveyor to find things. They are supposed to be professional. Not all things are obvious while the boat sits in the water. Some people , like myself, pay a surveyor just to see what they run up that I didn't. One surveyor I had knew exactly what to look for on the boat I had him inspect, he saved me about $55k in repairs.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:33   #56
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
I was called out as stating an opinion instead of fact so I want to state the facts that I know in an E & O case.

An individual that I didn't know at the time purchased a property that had numerous defects that were well known to many but was not disclosed to the buyer. Despite the defendants E&O insurance they offered no compensation or even would engage in a conversation about the deficiencies. The buyer sued and I was called in as an expert witness. The buyer won after a lengthy and costly court case. Then the defendants insurance company appealed which brought up more expense to the buyer. Eventually the case was settled but the buyer lost in the short and long run. I have stayed friends with the buyer decades later.

So as I stated earlier E&O insurance can mean very little to you if you are trying to correct a problem. In fact you may be battling an insurance company with very deep pockets.

This is a fact and not an opinion.
I'm guessing there might be more to it but as described this sounds more like fraud.

E&O is intended to protect against mistakes not intentional misleading. If the seller and surveyor knew of major and material issues and kept them from the buyer, the E&O insurance doesn't apply and the insurance company will rightly do thier best to avoid paying (of course the trick is proving they knew). It doesn't suprise me that someone committing fraud wouldn't be forthcoming with information.
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Old 02-06-2015, 18:25   #57
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

Interesting,

The surveyor will have insurance but find out the cost of repair and broker a deal.

Recently i had a surveyor on board he said 'be careful with this company because they may cut corners or miss things".

I called on friday saying i found some damage on the hull that has been missed. He then came back with the company to do the work. They reinforced everything but missed this section that i had especially spoken out about.

It got me thinking that when I buy my next boat, ill have 2-3 surveyors on board and conduct 3 reports. Then get them all together to work out a solutiom to fix it.

We have back up GPS and auto pilots and spares so why not a "back up" surveyor' perhaps we need two boats also ;-) line drawn there!

I hope you have some luk with it.
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