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Old 06-04-2015, 11:51   #31
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

s/v Illusion--
Thank you for the expertise comment.

s/v SeaMonstrEd--
For next time, it would be good to call your insurance company for the name of a surveyor that they recommend. This has proven to be very rewarding each time I have bought a boat.
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:59   #32
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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Originally Posted by CLady View Post
s/v Illusion--
Thank you for the expertise comment.

s/v SeaMonstrEd--
For next time, it would be good to call your insurance company for the name of a surveyor that they recommend. This has proven to be very rewarding each time I have bought a boat.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:44   #33
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

This may not be practical for everyone but inspecting the boat top to bottom yourself before even calling a surveyor is always a good practice.
Not all surveyors are created equal, all yacht manufacturers do things differently, they all have their good and bad models, even the best builders have boats they'd like to forget. No surveyor could possibly know all those quirks in every model ever built. It pays to survey the surveyor, ask them if they're familiar with the make, ask if they are more familiar with power or sail.
Prior to the surveyor looking over the boat spend a day, and I mean a full 8-10 hour day going through the boat yourself, then when the surveyor is looking it over either be there yourself or at least call a couple times and ask what they've seen so far. I've found more than once that I've picked up on things they missed and found that discussing your findings can help keep them on their toes and look just a little harder.
I've rebuilt and refitted enough boats to know what to look for, which as far as I'm concerned is everything, structure, systems, upkeep, sails, motor, etc, etc. It's your money, it's OK to be a pain in the ass, it will save you much pain later. I'm not averse to buying a boat that might have a couple issues, but I want the purchase price to reflect those issues.
Do some background research on your boat, the internet is a wonderful thing, I've gone as far as to call the builders and the designers, some are more cooperative than others but you can gain valuable information there.
Not all surveyors are created equal, just like all professions, but again, it's your money, it's OK to be a pain in the ass. It's easier to negotiate money up front in the purchase than it is to recover on the back end.
Chalk this one up to experience, good luck on your efforts to recover whatever you can, I hope it works out in your favor.
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Old 06-04-2015, 13:34   #34
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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Originally Posted by Rhwins View Post
Are you saying that the E & O covers something the surveyor breaks while doing his/her survey but not for failing to discovering a latent problem?
Not to make a judgement about this specific event, either that there should be a claim or not. Just to add some clarity about E&O Insurance ....... And to answer this unanswered question.

E&O Insurnace does not cover something the inspector/surveyor (he/she) breaks.

The E&O coverage is for errors and/or ommissions of fact that occurred in the performance of their hired job. Or the negligence or the failure to perform their professional service. One would have to refer to the contract for hire to understand what the service was to be performed and then assess if a claim may be valid.

Attached is a policy of a typical RE appraiser (Personal data removed) that shows the E&O Policy may pay claims up to a million with a $1000 deductable that would be paid by the appraiser.

The job of a RE Appraiser and a Marine Surveyor are very different, however the "Insurance" or E&O Insurance coverage is very much the same.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf E&O insurance policy for an appraiser.pdf (45.3 KB, 21 views)
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Old 06-04-2015, 15:13   #35
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

I am a marine surveyor (www.foreandaftsurveyors.com) and yes it easy to miss something.....There was no photos of the problem you found? When I inspect rudders I give them a tap with my hammer and then a fairly good wiggle with my hands. Usually that gives you a fairly good idea what you will find inside. Then from the inside I inspect the glass tabbing, tiller connection or rudder quadrant and wires. This can range from an easy job to me stretched at full reach taking photos with my digital camera trying to inspect what I cannot reach. As for researching a vessel on line I never do that as you could spend hours getting no where and one persons issue could be what another person considers regular maintenance. Thanks
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Old 06-04-2015, 15:41   #36
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

Still don't see allot of info did you have it pulled

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Old 06-04-2015, 20:30   #37
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

Would have thought that if it were to go to either arbitration or court that a failure to adequately inspect a major component such as a rudder would be be deemed to have at the least a chance of some form of "fault" or failure on the surveyor's part. It is why professionals should have professional indemnity insurance it there is not chance of a claim succeeding then why would anyone pay the high premiums that are required to take out that insurance. To the original poster you should as has been pointed out by other posters find out the process for making a claim from the surveyors insurance company and proceed, and if he does not have that insurance then the only other option is to sue the surveyor. If you use a surveyor one of the first questions to ask is whether they have insurance cover. You are paying an expert for there expertise in there chosen field there will be some give an take on minor items or on items that are outside there expertise and a caveat on time after the inspection but failure to pick up a major fault, especially if there is a history of other boats of the same design and age having it is a biggy.
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Old 06-04-2015, 22:09   #38
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

It appears from this conversation that there may two different sources for attempting to collect any damages: the surveyor's insurance and your own.

ITWMB, I'd ask myself: "Which one would be easiest to collect from?"

That is, even if you choose to try to do so, rather than just "eating" it.

Does that make sense, and/or make it any easier for you?
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Old 07-04-2015, 06:58   #39
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
.............I wish people wouldn't offer opinion as fact on this forum.
There would be very few posts if that were a requirement.
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Old 07-04-2015, 07:10   #40
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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It appears from this conversation that there may two different sources for attempting to collect any damages: the surveyor's insurance and your own.
.......................
I don't think you can buy a boat, take out an insurance policy on it and then file a claim for something that was defective on the boat when you bought it.

Well, you could file a claim but I doubt they would pay it.

The OP needs to read the contract he had with the surveyor. This should specify what happens if something was missed. Most likely, it protects the surveyor for omissions.
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Old 07-04-2015, 07:28   #41
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

i know folks who sued a year post purchase and won.
i know others who did same and lost.

do you love the boat except for the repairable problem??

have you gotten estimates on the repair??


generally survey my own boats as i donot buy comprehensive insurance. and i know what to look for.

the past surveys on my formosa are a good comedy read.

your choices are to either suck it up and repair so you can use boat
OR
spend years in court over the discrepancy not knowing if you will win or merely cover court fees.

OR renig on your deal and buy different boat.

did your contract read purchase PENDING SURVEY???
if so you have an out.

if not....continue on and learn.
it is only money.
you are prolly better off just repairing the problem and continue to live.

UNLESS you are not in love with this particular boat. then just start over.
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Old 07-04-2015, 07:41   #42
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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I've been doing shipwright work for several (40+) years. Only once did I encounter an error and omission by a surveyor. It pertained to the foredeck and foc'sle damage from termites and dry rot. The owner discovered the problem and asked me to sit down with the surveyor, a highly respected and experienced individual. The owner presented his case, the surveyor politely listened, asked a couple questions, inspected the contested area, and then told me (I had known him for several years in our trade) to do WHATEVER repairs I deemed necessary to making the boat comply to our mutually agreed standards for structural integrity. I did the work, which included removal of the entire foredeck, replacement of all deck beams and the foredeck hatch, reinstalling the windlass and supporting deck gear, and some rigging work associated with the headstay tang. He gave me a large deposit and promptly paid off the balance upon presentation of the bill. He then went to his own insurance agent and was partially reimbursed. He is still in business, many years later.
That is very impressive but unfortunately not the rule. You would make a favor to the forum in posting the surveyor's name.

I want to alert the ones that buy boats in Europe that some Brokers work this way: You have to pay a substantial advance to view the boat that will be reimbursed if the survey is negative and here is the catch. You may be not satisfied with the boat condition but if the surveyor (you can chose it even if they suggest one to you) makes a positive survey you would have to buy the boat...or you would lose the advancement. Crazy but true.
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:09   #43
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

Bottom line this is about risk vs reward. Every minute you spend thinking about or attempting to obtain compensation from the surveyor you risk wasting. Every dollar you spend on attorneys in an attempt to gain compensation you risk wasting. On top of that the emotional stress involved is unavoidable. The possible reward is the cost of the repair minus attorney fees, your time & whatever dollar value you attribute to the stress of undergoing the process.


For me to undergo the stress of a law suit there would have to be the possibility of a very significant reward which there is not in this case. Whatever you do you have to decide if the risk of your time, money & health is worth the potential reward.
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:12   #44
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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That is very impressive but unfortunately not the rule. You would make a favor to the forum in posting the surveyor's name.

I want to alert the ones that buy boats in Europe that some Brokers work this way: You have to pay a substantial advance to view the boat that will be reimbursed if the survey is negative and here is the catch. You may be not satisfied with the boat condition but if the surveyor (you can chose it even if they suggest one to you) makes a positive survey you would have to buy the boat...or you would lose the advancement. Crazy but true.
Maybe your intent isn't clear but that sounds very similar to in the states.

You make an offer contingent on a survey and put down a deposit. If the survey comes back clean, you are contractually bound to buy the boat and the deposit can be held if you fail to follow thru on the purchase (doesn't always happen but it can)

As long as you aren't using the survey to get a lower price on issues you are already aware of, I don't see where it's much of a concern.
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Old 07-04-2015, 09:51   #45
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Re: What happens after a bad survey?

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Maybe your intent isn't clear but that sounds very similar to in the states.

You make an offer contingent on a survey and put down a deposit. If the survey comes back clean, you are contractually bound to buy the boat and the deposit can be held if you fail to follow thru on the purchase (doesn't always happen but it can)

As long as you aren't using the survey to get a lower price on issues you are already aware of, I don't see where it's much of a concern.
If that is a rule on the States it is not in Europe fortunately, at least yet.

I was not talking of making any offer, I was talking about surveying a a boat that has a given price. For having it surveyed I had to made a contract.

The results of the Survey are not necessarily agreeable in what regards the boat being on a condition the buyer finds acceptable. The Surveyor opinion will prevail contractually.

A surveyor can find acceptable that a boat with 20 years has this and that problem that are "normal" on a boat with that age and year and therefore states that the boat is on a good condition (for a boat with that age). Even if it is normal that a boat has those problems with that age you may not be interested on a boat with those problems...and if you give up you can lose your deposit.
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