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Old 25-05-2016, 05:56   #106
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

it's ok, i'm not that thin skinned.
some would say "i'm a walruss"
i even start to look like one.
i blame the fact that i quit smoking.
apology accepted.
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:02   #107
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
A fellow CF member Charie onboard his immaculate Hans Christian and I had absolutely no empathy for the small 30ft powerboat on the day we rescued it off the rocky beach a couple years ago off Mahon, Menorca? Neither of us even thought to ask for or try to extort money from the British family on the boat. We just did what needed to be done at the time. The folks on board were so shook up by the experience that they even forgot to thank us. It wasn't until two days later when I chance met up with them in town, that thanks were bestowed on us. -
I would never have considered asking for money, nor would I or Charlie have accepted it for our troubles. I guess that's just a difference in our moral internal code and upbringing.
Of course you are right here. How bad would boating (and life in general) become when everybody asked for monetary compensation for ~little things which should go without saying.

Were I disagree is that a compensation is always a bad thing and that boat alexandra acted wrongly. Consider that for a karma-lucky-oyster-owner ;-) it might be easier to forgo a compensation than for another person. And that, maybe, rescuing a boat for a (wealthy) company is kind of a service and not necessarily comparable to 'a little help' for a fellow sailor.
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:11   #108
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

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i quit smoking last Oktober.
you guys are my replacement drug.
I get like that when I'm sitting in the office getting pissed off with work.
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:13   #109
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

I have rescued people's dinghies and woke people in the night when they are dragging anchor. I have helped pull anchor in a 50 foot boat manually because the owner was gone, the windlass off, boat locked, and it was dragging anchor. In all of these cases I didn't try to get anything from them, but this situation is different.

I was diving underwater in 2 meter waves under an overturned boat in the night and disconnecting the rigging and cut my leg pretty badly (enough to drip blood all over the place) doing this. I had to free dive 15 meters deep on the same spot the next day to retrieve the rig. Alexandra has no engine, and I could not tow the waterlogged boat against the wind. This boat is incredibly difficult to bail out if you know anything about it. The sailing instructor at the club (not the guy the club commodore sent to me who offered $20) was amazed I was able to save the boat, after all, he couldn't. It took me 4 hours of hard effort to do it. I did a bit more than $20 damage to my boat. I broke off my vhf antenna, it is gone, and I broke my light-air wind vane. The club needs to take care of me at this point if they want the rig back because I am legally the owner.

I believe I should get $200, plus the chance to sail the boat a bit (I have never sailed small race boats like this) and maybe use what facilities they have for 1 day.

If they cannot pay more than $20 for all of my efforts, then I am willing to go with them against the authorities to get the coast guard and police in trouble for their illegal activities, and if proven guilty the club can have the boat complete with rig free. I am in martinique at the moment but next week I may go back and talk to them again and see what happened to the boat. Otherwise, it's fine, I can keep the rig and use the parts for myself but it's a shame to separate a boat from its rig.

I wanted to add, the only hero in any of this is the sailing instructor who rescued the kids and left the boat. He was on another laser just like it and didn't have any kind of powerboat he could use at the time.
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:16   #110
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

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for the record, i haven't smoked weed in 25 years. i quit cigarettes last year after 25 years of smoking.
Hey, well done

Whilst I've never really been a smoker, but I work with quite a few desperately trying to give up, over and over again. Terrible addiction. My 'young' boss told me today she reached the six month mark just today.
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:30   #111
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

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I have rescued people's dinghies and woke people in the night when they are dragging anchor. I have helped pull anchor in a 50 foot boat manually because the owner was gone, the windlass off, boat locked, and it was dragging anchor. In all of these cases I didn't try to get anything from them, but this situation is different.

I was diving underwater in 2 meter waves under an overturned boat in the night and disconnecting the rigging and cut my leg pretty badly (enough to drip blood all over the place) doing this. I had to free dive 15 meters deep on the same spot the next day to retrieve the rig. Alexandra has no engine, and I could not tow the waterlogged boat against the wind. This boat is incredibly difficult to bail out if you know anything about it. The sailing instructor at the club (not the guy the club commodore sent to me who offered $20) was amazed I was able to save the boat, after all, he couldn't. It took me 4 hours of hard effort to do it. I did a bit more than $20 damage to my boat. I broke off my vhf antenna, it is gone, and I broke my light-air wind vane. The club needs to take care of me at this point if they want the rig back because I am legally the owner.

I believe I should get $200, plus the chance to sail the boat a bit (I have never sailed small race boats like this) and maybe use what facilities they have for 1 day.

If they cannot pay more than $20 for all of my efforts, then I am willing to go with them against the authorities to get the coast guard and police in trouble for their illegal activities, and if proven guilty the club can have the boat complete with rig free. I am in martinique at the moment but next week I may go back and talk to them again and see what happened to the boat. Otherwise, it's fine, I can keep the rig and use the parts for myself but it's a shame to separate a boat from its rig.

I wanted to add, the only hero in any of this is the sailing instructor who rescued the kids and left the boat. He was on another laser just like it and didn't have any kind of powerboat he could use at the time.

Dude, I can understand why your disappointed. You put a lot of effort into saving the boat thinking you can make some money out of your effort.

But, you don't have the boat do you? The police have the boat. and the club that own the boat don't want it back. Not for the amount you want in compensation anyway.

Look, instead of trying to force anything, which is just going to turn out bad for you, why don't you ask the club to sign over ownership of the boat to you in lieu of any payment. Get it in writing. Then take that to the police and ask politely if you can collect your property. Then you sell the boat for whatever you can make of it.

Bingo, everyone is happy :

But, don't go there trying to get 'your boat' when it belongs to the club. You might find yourself getting arrested. And certainly don't go trying to get the authorities in trouble. I can see that turning very sour for you.
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:41   #112
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

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Dude, I can understand why your disappointed. You put a lot of effort into saving the boat thinking you can make some money out of your effort.

But, you don't have the boat do you? The police have the boat. and the club that own the boat don't want it back. Not for the amount you want in compensation anyway.

Look, instead of trying to force anything, which is just going to turn out bad for you, why don't you ask the club to sign over ownership of the boat to you in lieu of any payment. Get it in writing. Then take that to the police and ask politely if you can collect your property. Then you sell the boat for whatever you can make of it.

Bingo, everyone is happy :

But, don't go there trying to get 'your boat' when it belongs to the club. You might find yourself getting arrested. And certainly don't go trying to get the authorities in trouble. I can see that turning very sour for you.
That sounds like good advice, salvage law is a tricky thing with a lot of obligations on the salvor.

As I understand it the salvor can put a lein on the boat, but doesn't own it.

At this stage the insurance company possibly owns the boat having paid out the resort. Trying to get in touch with them might be worth while, they might have a better idea of the salvage laws and their obligations.

Its a bit late now but lloyds open (LOF) form, no cure, no pay is a good start point.
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:48   #113
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

^^
Good advice. And it isn't his, just cos someone at the club says so and who clearly doesn't know the rules. It's theirs. He can claim salvage, but it's not his until they give it him. Likewise the rig should not be taken.

BA you are on very thin ice here. Reel your neck in.
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Old 25-05-2016, 08:03   #114
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

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A fee which is hardly reflective of even his costs. Were there any costs?

Bottom line is, he had a right to ask for costs, though it seems to me he wasn't actually asking for costs, but more a case of 'I'm short on cash, give me $200 and you can have your boat back'. As someone else commented it sounds more on the extortion side. The owners had a right to decide those costs were too much and decline to pay them. END OF STORY.
You keep harping on about BA's "costs" or lack thereof. Typically in a marine salvage situation the fee paid would reflect the merit of the service provided, the value of the vessel, compensation for rescuers time and effort as well as any costs incurred. Marine salvage laws were not developed merely to recoup costs but also to provide an incentive for a rescuer to provide assistance and remove a hazard to navigation.

Maybe some here would argue that the merit, value of vessel, costs, and value of BA's time are all $0 (since its been stated in this thread that hes just a leftwing bum looking for a handout )

You're correct that the club had the right to decline any offer. Maybe if the police werent expecting payment for an undisclosed amount as well they would have paid the seemingly resonable salvage fee BA was asking for. Otherwise hed make a nice profit on the sale!
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Old 25-05-2016, 09:39   #115
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

Salvage laws vary depending on whether inland, open, or protected areas. If within a "harbor" or official anchorage, salvage is doubtful; Some kids did that with a Formosa 52 that went aground after a storm in a sheltered bay. Courts said no way that is salvage nor abandoned vessel; only applies on high seas. Kids then dragged the boat into the middle of the bay, set it on fire; and subsequently spent a fortune defending themselves in court for criminal property damage and criminal trespass.
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Old 25-05-2016, 10:34   #116
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

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Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post
I have rescued people's dinghies and woke people in the night when they are dragging anchor. I have helped pull anchor in a 50 foot boat manually because the owner was gone, the windlass off, boat locked, and it was dragging anchor. In all of these cases I didn't try to get anything from them, but this situation is different.

I was diving underwater in 2 meter waves under an overturned boat in the night and disconnecting the rigging and cut my leg pretty badly (enough to drip blood all over the place) doing this. I had to free dive 15 meters deep on the same spot the next day to retrieve the rig. Alexandra has no engine, and I could not tow the waterlogged boat against the wind. This boat is incredibly difficult to bail out if you know anything about it. The sailing instructor at the club (not the guy the club commodore sent to me who offered $20) was amazed I was able to save the boat, after all, he couldn't. It took me 4 hours of hard effort to do it. I did a bit more than $20 damage to my boat. I broke off my vhf antenna, it is gone, and I broke my light-air wind vane. The club needs to take care of me at this point if they want the rig back because I am legally the owner.

I believe I should get $200, plus the chance to sail the boat a bit (I have never sailed small race boats like this) and maybe use what facilities they have for 1 day.

If they cannot pay more than $20 for all of my efforts, then I am willing to go with them against the authorities to get the coast guard and police in trouble for their illegal activities, and if proven guilty the club can have the boat complete with rig free. I am in martinique at the moment but next week I may go back and talk to them again and see what happened to the boat. Otherwise, it's fine, I can keep the rig and use the parts for myself but it's a shame to separate a boat from its rig.

I wanted to add, the only hero in any of this is the sailing instructor who rescued the kids and left the boat. He was on another laser just like it and didn't have any kind of powerboat he could use at the time.
Has it crossed your mind yet, that maybe it's time to move on and put all of this behind you? Just forget about the stinkin' boat, the entire episode and chalk it up as experience.

Before you really end up stepping in some deep feces with the questionable police department? It's not worth $200.... Geez, eventually your bail could end up costing you more than that.

You're a visitor in a foreign country, you don't have any rights to anything if the locals don't think so. It doesn't matter how you feel about that.
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Old 25-05-2016, 11:11   #117
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

While the amount of holier-than-thou sentiment directed toward BA in this thread is a bit nauseating, I'd agree that its probably best to not push the situation with the police... That is unless you feel like sacrificing yourself to whatever unpleasantries the police could subject you to, in order to stand up to police corruption about which the locals (some of whom have already stolen from you) havent cared enough about to do anything themselves.

Thats a most likely futile effort that I'd avoid like the plague...
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Old 25-05-2016, 11:17   #118
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

Interesting thread. However, politics aside, I don't see the OP as a bad or necessarily greedy person but rather someone who, in my opinion, is naive. And, I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way but rather a descriptive one of a person that doesn't have a great deal of experience in interpersonal human relations--what we call in Chicago "street smarts." Firstly, his act of "salvage" can hardly be considered humanitarian since he believed he should have been fairly compensated for his efforts. But, rather than claiming salvage when he towed the vessel to shore, he acquiesced to the corrupt officials and relinquished the boat. Secondly, he didn't initiate a formal protest as a matter of record when items were missing on his vessel but basically ignored it. Thirdly, he wanted to bond with the "natives" and take them for a sail when their probable intention was to steal from him once underway. And they did and he didn't file a formal complaint against the people with local officials. And finally, since leaving the island he has conjectured about returning to settle his grievances with the corrupt officials in an act which surely would be absurd at best. So, is the OP a bad person? No. But hopefully he will gain valuable human experience throughout his travels and return a wiser man. Good luck and safe sailing.
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Old 25-05-2016, 11:41   #119
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

There are already enough street-smarts around (not least on the concerned island). I'd prefer the OP to stay friendly, naive maybe, and happy. As for St. Lucia: nuke and rebuilding might be best...

<little mushroom cloud>
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Old 25-05-2016, 11:46   #120
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Re: Somtimes it's Better not to Rescue a Boat

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I'm sorry, but I disagree with this and the harsh, uncompromising interpretation of the story in other posts.

Sure, we should help others without asking for reward, but there are times when its not worth the trouble helping others because maybe the effort isn't worth the results or because the effort won't be appreciated or because to help puts you in unacceptable danger. Each case on its merits.

With this situation there was a low value capsized resort dinghy out at sea, the owner of which was most likely a business where the impact of the loss was not as large as with a personal owner. I personally wouldn't have recovered it to tow it in, all the more if there was any risk I might have been accused of stealing it (as I believe was a risk the OP was running). I would have noted the location and reported it on land. Had the boat been a cruiser's dinghy, I would have recovered it. Ditto a drifting yacht and I wouldn't have asked for or accepted a reward. That is how it should be. But still, had I found a drifting yacht in the middle of the Atlantic, I might well leave it unless it was a Gunboat with a broken mast. Its a balanced assessment of risk, effort and benefit.

I believe the OP made that assessment and thought he would leave the boat, but he is short of cash and may be lucky and get a decent reward. That reward could be a fair compensation for his effort and reflect to a degree the value to the owner. He probably realized the dinghy was a business asset, so the concept of a business transaction was all the more acceptable than it would be to a private owner. He was probably aware of the concept of marine salvage, but at no time did he use that to bully and extort money out of anyone or to demand a return of the dinghy from the police. He could have done this, that he didn't suggests a less than greedy approach.

I also don't believe the OP to be a greedy person. He has been wrongly judged. He is a major contributor to the programming of OpenCPN, which involves donating large amounts of time and effort to the boating community for no financial gain and maybe by doing this he isn't working and it is is part of the reason why he he has no money and wants to make some. I also don't judge him badly for having no money and living outside the rat-race. People live their lives as they do for all kinds of reasons, mostly they will be logical reasons for them and are a result of their personal life experiences and we don't have to criticise or judge them because we see things differently.

The poor sod got robbed by locals he took sailing for free, robbed by the police and had his efforts refused as worthless by the resort. He deserves some sympathy too.
Nail on the head.
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