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Old 08-11-2015, 11:34   #121
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

I regularly charted from Footloose and the tanks were put on in the last 7 or so years. Have you ever had your tank pumped out in the BVI? I will be with Moorings in January.


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Old 08-11-2015, 11:43   #122
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Originally Posted by dangerfield55 View Post
I regularly charted from Footloose and the tanks were put on in the last 7 or so years. Have you ever had your tank pumped out in the BVI? I will be with Moorings in January.
There are no pumpouts in the BVI and you do not need any.

Most if not all boats in the TUI (Moorings/Sunsail/footloose) have bottom gravity discharge. There is no Y valve. Every morning when you leave the anchorage you open the discharge valve upon reaching open water, then close it a few minutes later and before going into the bay where you will stop next.

This way you avoid the only significant impact of sewage from boats ***in that context***, which is to humans swimming and people washing dishes with saltwater. Dilution and UV take care of bacteria and dilution (few thousand boaters in a huge flow of sea current) takes care of nitrogen, etc, better than a treatment plant. This would not be the case in the Chesapeake, hence "horses for courses" principle applies.

I know the zealots who did not study any environmental engineering may think that it is better to pump out ashore, just to have the stuff pumped back to a single point in the sea by the local sanitary sewer operator.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:08   #123
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post

I know the zealots who did not study any environmental engineering may think that it is better to pump out ashore, just to have the stuff pumped back to a single point in the sea by the local sanitary sewer operator.

That reminds me of a John Neal story years ago when he did an oil change on his boat while offshore. He didn't want to dump the old oil overboard and pollute the ocean, so he kept it until he landed on an island (I forget which one). He took the oil to a local boat mechanic, paid him a few bucks and explained he wanted it recycled.
After he left, he looked back and saw the man pouring the oil on a palm tree on the beach.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:10   #124
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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He didn't want to dump the old oil overboard and pollute the ocean...
Then he should have filtered it and mixed into the diesel tank....
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:30   #125
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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=svlamorocha;1957094]There are no pumpouts in the BVI and you do not need any.

Most if not all boats in the TUI (Moorings/Sunsail/footloose) have bottom gravity discharge. There is no Y valve. Every morning when you leave the anchorage you open the discharge valve upon reaching open water, then close it a few minutes later and before going into the bay where you will stop next.
The Moorings require that you return the boat with an empty holding tank. If you forget to discharge there is something like a $150 fee. Best to return the boat with the valve open.

No doubt there is discharging in the marina to avoid the fee.

As to the OP's question?....Nothing I would be proud of.
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:37   #126
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Point of fact: Human viruses do not and cannot live in seawater. E. Coil cannot live or survive for any length of time in seawater due to salinity and temperature. Look it up.
Not my field of expertise, but some research seems to indicate that some human disease pathogens can survive in salt water.

bioenv.gu.se/english/staff/bodil_bernroth_eng

http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/...ting-pathogens

http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/...nella-bacteria
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Old 08-11-2015, 13:54   #127
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Not my field of expertise, but some research seems to indicate that some human disease pathogens can survive in salt water.

bioenv.gu.se/english/staff/bodil_bernroth_eng

Sea Life Is Accumulating Pathogens : Oceanus Magazine

Legions of Legionella Bacteria : Oceanus Magazine
You might want to read the articles you suggested a little more closely. The results were inconclusive, and the pathogens only survive in the intestines of some of the seals tested. Their intestines.... not in seawater.

So... unless you allow a seal to poop in your mouth, chances are... you'll be OK.
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Old 08-11-2015, 14:03   #128
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Not my field of expertise, but some research seems to indicate that some human disease pathogens can survive in salt water.

bioenv.gu.se/english/staff/bodil_bernroth_eng

Sea Life Is Accumulating Pathogens : Oceanus Magazine

Legions of Legionella Bacteria : Oceanus Magazine
When we think about the environment it is helpful to think about it as an engineering problem, not a religious one. There will always pathogens in river water and seawater. The question is whether the count will be high enough to make it harmful. The numbers will be different in the Chesapeake (high residence time in a bay with a huge load of sewage) and the coastal waters of the BVI (small load of sewage dispersed by huge ocean current flow).
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Old 08-11-2015, 14:09   #129
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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The Moorings require that you return the boat with an empty holding tank. If you forget to discharge there is something like a $150 fee. Best to return the boat with the valve open.

No doubt there is discharging in the marina to avoid the fee.
.
It is implied in your thinking that there is "no doubt" that charterers will not do what they are supposed to do, which is:

a) close the valve before entering the bay where you will anchor/moor for lunch or the night.

b) open the valve after leaving that bay; and

c) not use the head the last night at the base.

If they do just that, the tank will be empty after they sail the several miles between the last bay where they anchored/moored and the Moorings base.

I know this may sound confused to someone used to different practices, ranging from no holding tanks as in the UK to absolutely "no discharge" like in the US, but I think it is not that difficult to learn the gig. Did I miss anything?
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Old 08-11-2015, 15:37   #130
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

There are virtually no health issues with overboard discharge in saltwater. The germs and viruses that affect humans don't survive for long in salt water. Look at it as feeding the fish who'll gobble up the Baby Ruth's in no time. Wouldn't want to be one of a million boats making deposits in a crowded mooring field like Avalon on Catalina but then you'll never find me in that kind of place.

Fresh water is another story, however.

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Do you ever go for a swim after you anchor? Does anyone else in the cove do the same? Do you suppose some of them use seawater for washing dishes?

Then why does make any difference whether you are in the US or not? If the purpose of the rule is human health, then the law should matter less than the location; hold when you are somewhere people swim, pump over when you are not. It's kind of like speeding in your car; we all push it when the road is open, and we all slow down when there are children around, sign or not.

And if you make one short trip to Florida and get checked, you're going to get hammered.
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Old 08-11-2015, 16:24   #131
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Point of fact: Human viruses do not and cannot live in seawater. E. Coil cannot live or survive for any length of time in seawater due to salinity and temperature. Look it up.
I did look it up and posted a couple of authoritative sources earlier in this thread.

Human pathogens (e.g., e. Coli) will survive up to two days in sunny salt water (some longer), longer in murkier. It seems to be the sunlight that kills them, not salt water.
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Old 08-11-2015, 17:13   #132
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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=svlamorocha;1957225]It is implied in your thinking that there is "no doubt" that charterers will not do what they are supposed to do, which is:

a) close the valve before entering the bay where you will anchor/moor for lunch or the night.

b) open the valve after leaving that bay; and

c) not use the head the last night at the base.

If they do just that, the tank will be empty after they sail the several miles between the last bay where they anchored/moored and the Moorings base.

I know this may sound confused to someone used to different practices, ranging from no holding tanks as in the UK to absolutely "no discharge" like in the US, but I think it is not that difficult to learn the gig. Did I miss anything?
OR....to just keep things simple....Make sure the valve is closed when you leave the marina and open the valve off shore before you return.

As to the charterers that forget?...or run aground, or back over their painter etc..... hear lots of stuff at the beach bars.

As a charterer, I like holding tanks. In the old days, no way would I take a morning dip in a crowded anchorage with everybody pumping directly overboard.

Now, no worries at all mate!
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:49   #133
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

What a bizarre conversation. Every commercial and military ship in the world pumps out offshore, because there's no reason not to.

The shore pump-outs are sent to the sewer system, where they're treated with oxygen and pumped straight out to sea using pipelines. It's not as though there's some difference between a yacht pumping out offshore and and pumping out in-shore--the result is the same. The oxygen serves no purpose other than to kill bacteria more rapidly than saltwater would do on its own. There are no biological pathogens in human waste that can survive more than a few days in salt-water.

The city of Stockton dumps its sewage (after oxygenating it) directly into the delta, which is where the City of San Francisco subsequently gets its drinking water. And that's a fresh water system.

The city of Tijuauna sends it's >untreated< sewage out to the Tijuana River Delta, which is in the U.S., and it flows to the sea right next to the city of Imperial Beach and Coronado. That estuary is not particularly high-flow, and the dangerous human pathology bacteria counts frequently do close beaches in the U.S. That's a city of over half a million people whose accumulated waste is continually flowing onshore in the U.S. I'm amazed that those beaches aren't always closed, but it does show you how much human waste is required to actually cause a problem.

Biological waste is only a problem in places like bays, estuaries, and deltas where it can accumulate. Obviously you should not pump or dump in enclosed, shallow areas.

Offshore in the open ocean, it is merely food for fish, and you're causing yourself a much larger human health problem by keeping it around in your holding tank brewing pathogens longer than necessary.
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:44   #134
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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What a bizarre conversation. Every commercial and military ship in the world pumps out offshore, because there's no reason not to.

The shore pump-outs are sent to the sewer system, where they're treated with oxygen and pumped straight out to sea using pipelines. It's not as though there's some difference between a yacht pumping out offshore and and pumping out in-shore--the result is the same. The oxygen serves no purpose other than to kill bacteria more rapidly than saltwater would do on its own. There are no biological pathogens in human waste that can survive more than a few days in salt-water.

The city of Stockton dumps its sewage (after oxygenating it) directly into the delta, which is where the City of San Francisco subsequently gets its drinking water. And that's a fresh water system.

The city of Tijuauna sends it's >untreated< sewage out to the Tijuana River Delta, which is in the U.S., and it flows to the sea right next to the city of Imperial Beach and Coronado. That estuary is not particularly high-flow, and the dangerous human pathology bacteria counts frequently do close beaches in the U.S. That's a city of over half a million people whose accumulated waste is continually flowing onshore in the U.S. I'm amazed that those beaches aren't always closed, but it does show you how much human waste is required to actually cause a problem.

..
That is forbidden since the 90's in EU, I mean the discharge of city waste waters without treatment to the sea. I believe that there is a reason for that and that the ones that are in charge of environmental problems know what they are doing.

http://www.doeni.gov.uk/niea/uwwtd_compliance.pdf
The Impact of the EC Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive - WRIGHT - 2007 - Water and Environment Journal - Wiley Online Library

I believe that it is a scale problem. No problem with ships on the middle of Oceans, but a problem when a large city discharges its human waste directly to the sea.

At least here, regarding treatment stations, not all goes to the sea, only the treated water, the solids are disposed in another way. Don't know what you call to that in English. Here they call it "lamas" that translated to the letter will give "slob".
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Old 09-11-2015, 13:46   #135
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

Polux,

Just curious... Where do you believe the millions of tons of "lamas" go? Are they hanging out with the unicorns?
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