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Old 26-08-2015, 17:45   #76
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

In Ontario there is a fine if you even have a valve to discharge black water overboard. If you have such a valve, just having it closed is not sufficient. It must be disabled or capped off in some manner.
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Old 26-08-2015, 18:00   #77
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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In Ontario there is a fine if you even have a valve to discharge black water overboard. If you have such a valve, just having it closed is not sufficient. It must be disabled or capped off in some manner.
Yes, we know Ontario is "different" that's why many of us left there years ago.
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Old 26-08-2015, 18:13   #78
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

Thanks for the update on False Creek and Granville Island, Trentepieds... Nice to know they finally cleaned the place up. I used to tow cedar logs to a shake mill next Sweeny's Cooperage in the creek. There was also a creosote plant that treated railway ties in the area that probably caused much of the pollution dating back to the 50's.
When we lived aboard in San Diego, we had vacuuflush heads and a holding tank. We had a pump out service come by every other week to clean out the black water tank but we took our boat out to give her a run every other week to keep the engines and gear in good nick and pumped out beyond SD 1 on those trips. Perhaps that's why the beaches in Northern Baja are not the nicest to swim in! Phil
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Old 26-08-2015, 18:19   #79
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Yes, we know Ontario is "different" that's why many of us left there years ago.
My apologies to MUTT, I was being a little facetious ... What we need to keep in mind is, the Great lakes are definitely different, inasmuch as they supply drinking water for millions of people on both sides of the border.
When we lived in ON in the 60's we sailed Georgian Bay, out of Lion's Head. We used to drink the water strait out of the lake over the side of the boat ... don't know if you would do that today??? ... However, the Atlantic and the Pacific are a different situation altogether. Salt water will purify most things, including crap ... particularly when using a macerator.
Personally, I believe any "requirement" for on board toilets is part of the governments need to generate more taxes through retail sales ... after all, it is the Governments job to redistribute wealth ... isn't it? or do they just redistribute crap? Now I'm confused. ...
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Old 26-08-2015, 22:23   #80
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

Oh, c'mon, Bob! It's surely QUITE obvious that it is far more subtle than just facilitating greater tax receipts.

Employing the unemployables as "civil servants" and letting them spend months and years thinking up unenforceable laws and regulations keeps them off the street corners and vests the "social assistance", masquerading a salaries, which we pay them via our taxes, with a degree of social respectability.

Let 'em have at it, sez I. The longer we keep deluding ourselves in this manner, the better the chances will be that we will be out of harms way in some distant cruising ground when the fit hits the shan!

Per Excrementum ad Gloriam :-)!

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Old 27-08-2015, 02:12   #81
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Could be worse........

That's bull. It's natural vegetation (ever heard of Sargassum seaweed?). Have passed by that several times in the Gulf of Mexico. As if cruise ships stop in the middle of the ocean and then pump out. Don't be so gullible.
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Old 27-08-2015, 04:58   #82
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

Some people need to educate themselves on the newish laws regarding booze on boats in Ontario at least.
Must have - Head, Permanently installed cooking facilities as well as sleeping accomodations. You can only have alcohol open at anchor or when docked.
Lots of people seem to think all you need is a head, that is NO LONGER correct.
Don't believe me?
"What boats may carry alcohol (Ontario Liquor Laws Sec.3/7):
A boat with permanent sleeping accommodations and permanent cooking and sanitary facilities, other than a boat used to carry passengers for hire, is considered to be a private place while the boat is at anchor or is secured to the dock or land. ..."
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Old 27-08-2015, 06:30   #83
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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However, if you want to hang your butt over the stern rail, eliminating the intermediate bucket step, that's legal.

This is how the Maine outward bound/NOLS (can't remember which) small boat trips do it. My friend described sharing a 24-ish foot open boat with 10 mixed gender strangers, rolled up against the gunwale to sleep at night, and hanging off the stern to do one's business. She was female.


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Old 27-08-2015, 08:17   #84
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Originally Posted by Siberianhusky View Post
Some people need to educate themselves on the newish laws regarding booze on boats in Ontario at least.
Must have - Head, Permanently installed cooking facilities as well as sleeping accomodations. You can only have alcohol open at anchor or when docked.
Lots of people seem to think all you need is a head, that is NO LONGER correct.
Don't believe me?
"What boats may carry alcohol (Ontario Liquor Laws Sec.3/7):
A boat with permanent sleeping accommodations and permanent cooking and sanitary facilities, other than a boat used to carry passengers for hire, is considered to be a private place while the boat is at anchor or is secured to the dock or land. ..."
Thanks for the reference :-)

My, oh my! Don't we have here a singular demonstration of the universal truth that the substance of a political party is the opposite of its name? Out here on the rip-snorting Wet Coast the blue laws of "Central Canada" have been a subject of jollity and ridicule for as long as I've been in this 'ere colony.

In case some of you might not know, Ontario is governed, pro tem though hopefully not forever, by the LIBERAL Party of Ontario.

This 'ere colony is governed, pro tem though hopefully not forever, by the Liberal Party of British Columbia. But ITS thrust is to make Demon Rum ever more accessible. Good Lord - you can even buy booze in grocery stores these days. Don't know what the world is coming to!

TrentePieds
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Old 27-08-2015, 10:57   #85
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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More Green narrative B.S., from a recent AP story:

"The issue of increased testing for Rio's polluted waterways — and what to do about it — has drawn attention since an independent five-month analysis by AP published July 30 showed dangerously high levels of viruses from human sewage at all Rio Olympic water venues."
I suspect that the Bay of Guanabara (base of AP's article) is not a good proxy for what is being talked about here. There is little tidal flow, little river flow and LOTS of sewage and miscellaneous nutrients that feed growth of stuff that blocks sunlight, hence inhibiting the effect of sunlight to kill bugs.

If the same sewage was dumped through a pipe out into the sea the impact would be negligible for several reasons. In the environmental engineering world folks will have an idea of what is the capacity of a system to absorb stuff, and in the case of the Guanabara Bay that capacity has been exceeded.

On another matter, I had the pleasure of seeing the British sailing team practicing in the Guanabara Bay early last year in those 49ers that like to capsize a lot... I did not envy them.
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Old 27-08-2015, 11:53   #86
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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... What we need to keep in mind is, the Great lakes are definitely different, inasmuch as they supply drinking water for millions of people on both sides of the border.
When we lived in ON in the 60's we sailed Georgian Bay, out of Lion's Head. We used to drink the water strait out of the lake over the side of the boat ... don't know if you would do that today??? ... However, the Atlantic and the Pacific are a different situation altogether. Salt water will purify most things, including crap ... particularly when using a macerator.
Personally, I believe any "requirement" for on board toilets is part of the governments need to generate more taxes through retail sales ... after all, it is the Governments job to redistribute wealth ... isn't it? or do they just redistribute crap? Now I'm confused. ...
There are two issues with waste going in the water....Pathogens and Nutrient Loading.

Pathogens: Actually the principal holds up just as well in the Great Lakes. In fact fresh water will kill most of the little nasties (ie: pathogens) faster than salt water (all else being equal). If you seperate out the liquid in the human body, it's suprisingly close to the mineral content of salt water. They have evolved to live in salinity very close to sea water. (electrosan creates chlorine out of the salt which is a different situation)

The imbalance in salinity with fresh water is really hard on the little buggers as it tries to achieve equilibrium. Also, they evolved to live at human body temperatures so a quick drop to 50F Great Lakes Water temps will also kill most off.

Most pathogen related issues have to do with timing.
- If you drop a pathogen in the water and then ingest is minutes later (ie: swiming past a direct flush yatch head), there are likely still live pathogens that can infect you.
- If it sits in the holding tank for hours or days at room temp, then is dumped a few miles of shore where it is diluted and cooled again, then it takes hours or days to drift to a beach, the pathogen issue is pretty much gone by the time any contact could take place. Even if there are a few live ones left, they are so few that your bodies normal defenses can handle them.

Nutrient Loading: In a body of water the size of the Great Lakes, the nutrient loading from yatchs is irrelevant. This is the old bears and deer do it situation and even back in the good ole days when you drank straight from the lake they were doing it.

It's large scale concentrated loading like you would get from municipal outflows or farm runoff that can create these issues. Even in a busy harbor, the loading from pleasure boats won't be enough to have any measurable impact.
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Old 27-08-2015, 22:19   #87
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
I suspect that the Bay of Guanabara (base of AP's article) is not a good proxy for what is being talked about here. There is little tidal flow, little river flow and LOTS of sewage and miscellaneous nutrients that feed growth of stuff that blocks sunlight, hence inhibiting the effect of sunlight to kill bugs.

If the same sewage was dumped through a pipe out into the sea the impact would be negligible for several reasons. In the environmental engineering world folks will have an idea of what is the capacity of a system to absorb stuff, and in the case of the Guanabara Bay that capacity has been exceeded.

On another matter, I had the pleasure of seeing the British sailing team practicing in the Guanabara Bay early last year in those 49ers that like to capsize a lot... I did not envy them.
Every time the subject of near-shore discharge of raw sewage comes up, some posters contend that it is not a problem because salt water quickly kills the pathogens.

That contention interested me, as I don't want to waste money/space on complicated systems that serve no real purpose except to satisfy bureaucratic whimsy.

But I cannot find any scientific support for that argument. In fact, everything I find, some of which I posted, says the opposite: the pathogens in human sewage persist in salt water (longer in murkier water).

Yes, there are other defenses for direct discharge that can be debated as well (dilution is one); I was narrowly focused on the "salt water quickly kills pathogens" contention, which it seems to me should be rejected, unless someone can find some science I haven't.
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Old 27-08-2015, 22:50   #88
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

A comment about pathogens:

Many of the comments above have been relative to disease being transmitted via fecal bacteria or viruses. Is it not true that in order to have such critters i n your feces you must be infected with the disease in the first place?

Thus, though cholera may indeed be propagated via fecal bacteria, if you, the yottie, do not have cholera your feces will not endanger others with that disease. And so on...


Not the whole answer, but does help address the fact that even in areas where many yachts discharge directly there are few if a ny outbreaks of infectious diseases.

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Old 27-08-2015, 23:41   #89
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

If I were re-tasking my holding tank I would plumb it as a marina dock water tank for cleaning and washing. Keep my main water tank clean for potable water via the water maker and not contaminate with bad fresh water you often find in tropical marinas.
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Old 27-08-2015, 23:56   #90
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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If I were re-tasking my holding tank I would plumb it as a marina dock water tank for cleaning and washing. Keep my main water tank clean for potable water via the water maker and not contaminate with bad fresh water you often find in tropical marinas.
I assume you mean, replacing then re-tasking the available new tank. It's never a good idea to convert an existing black water tank over for fresh water storage. Wrong on many levels.
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