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Old 25-08-2015, 19:17   #46
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

All the marine toilets that I have owned have reduced feces into small bits just from passing through the pump and joker valve. If you are seeing the oft mentioned "Baby ruths" in the water, they didn't come through a MSD. Bucket/chuck it, perhaps, animal poop from shore, perhaps, who knows. but not from a MSD.

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Old 25-08-2015, 19:45   #47
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Originally Posted by Dougtiff View Post
I have been using a Raritan "electro san now scan" for years even at sea, grinds it all up and kills the bacteria, i use it along with their electric toilet, great combo and the Ladys love it.
+1.
Today I spent most of the day removing my holding tank.
I had to drain the contents of the ElectroScan (already installed in parallel with a Y valve) to modify the plumbing.
The contents of the ElectroScan looked like rusty water, fairly clear with absolutely NO smell.

It works.

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Old 25-08-2015, 20:15   #48
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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You are very wrong about human pathogens, except for Cholera I believe, the pathogens can't survive even for a couple of minutes in salt water; which is why most cities through the world dump raw sewage into ocean... and there are no wide spread epidemics as a result of the practice.

Read some basic biology.
Yes, I am well aware of this.

  • Go swim under his boat. Would you feel OK about that?
  • There is cholera. I'm betting there are a few more.
  • Most people do not wash dishes in seawater, but cruisers do. That would explain the few sick people in the 3rd world, which wouldn't show against the background. There would not be enough participation to create an epidemic.
  • You may be right and every health authority may be wrong. I freely admit to not being a public health expert, but I'm not so bold as proclaim all health rules to be rubbish. That would sound a little silly.
All of which explains why Electroscan exists.
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Old 25-08-2015, 20:35   #49
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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There are surely TWO considerations here:

In the Straits of Juan de Fuca,
I spend a lot of weekends sailing the area between Victoria and Port Angeles.

It doesn't seem like a very big space to me and it's hard to fathom that a city the size of Victoria could be dumping raw sewage.

I really think the only reason they can get away with it and the straits don't fill up with poo is that the current goes out more than it comes in. I know you guys don't believe but that's true. The tide goes up and down but the current just keeps going out except for a few hours a day.

As with many things that 'adults' think are important it's a bit hard to believe that everyone who blows as much smoke as they do about boat sewage is really serious about it when no-body ever mentions Victoria and nobody ever does the comparison between the yearly spill of millions of gallons of sewage in the Seattle area vs the contribution possible from yachts. And what about the run off from hundreds of square miles of pavement covered in cars dripping oil and leaving rubber behind?

I'm not saying boat sewage should be ignored and for sure we don't want people pumping out everywhere but for some reason around Seattle boats are the culprits of choice for bad water quality even though the major sources are municipal.... of course none of the people on that crusade own boats but they do own big giant waterfront houses and giant SUV's. As you would expect hypocrisy knows no bounds in America.

It's time to line up some big law suits for Victoria and other municipalities rather than shutting down boat yards and storming private vessels.
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Old 25-08-2015, 20:58   #50
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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You are very wrong about human pathogens, except for Cholera I believe, the pathogens can't survive even for a couple of minutes in salt water; which is why most cities through the world dump raw sewage into ocean... and there are no wide spread epidemics as a result of the practice.

Read some basic biology.
From the Narragansett Bay Commission:

The waters of Narragansett Bay may contain pathogenic bacteria and viruses that derive from human sewage and other sources. Microorganisms can be divided into several classes including:

Bacteria - these tiny (13,000 individuals = one inch) single-celled organisms are present in the bodies of all living creatures, including humans. Bacteria play a vital role in processes such as decomposition and digestion. Bacteria can be found in large numbers in raw sewage, effluents, and in natural waters. Some well-known diseases caused by pathogenic bacteria include cholera, dysentery, shigellosis, and typhoid fever.

Viruses - too small to be recognized by ordinary light microscopes, viruses are generally recognized by the symptoms that they produce in the host. All viruses are parasites and must grow on living tissue. Many viruses are associated with feces, and are expected to be found in domestic wastes. Because many viruses can survive for extended periods of time in natural waters and can occasionally withstand the treatment process, they pose a public health concern. Viruses of concern that are transported in water include hepatitis A, Norwalk-type virus, rotavirus, and adenovirus.

Protozoans - these single-celled organisms can grow up to 5 millimeters long, and are found almost entirely in aquatic environments. Pathogenic protozoans compose approximately one-third of the entire class, and can cause serious health problems such as gastrointestinal disease, dysentery, and ulceration of the liver and intestines.
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Old 25-08-2015, 22:14   #51
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

I'm with Jim :-)

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Old 25-08-2015, 22:31   #52
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Originally Posted by Cottontop View Post
From the Narragansett Bay Commission:

The waters of Narragansett Bay may contain pathogenic bacteria and viruses that derive from human sewage and other sources. Microorganisms can be divided into several classes including:

Bacteria - these tiny (13,000 individuals = one inch) single-celled organisms are present in the bodies of all living creatures, including humans. Bacteria play a vital role in processes such as decomposition and digestion. Bacteria can be found in large numbers in raw sewage, effluents, and in natural waters. Some well-known diseases caused by pathogenic bacteria include cholera, dysentery, shigellosis, and typhoid fever.

Viruses - too small to be recognized by ordinary light microscopes, viruses are generally recognized by the symptoms that they produce in the host. All viruses are parasites and must grow on living tissue. Many viruses are associated with feces, and are expected to be found in domestic wastes. Because many viruses can survive for extended periods of time in natural waters and can occasionally withstand the treatment process, they pose a public health concern. Viruses of concern that are transported in water include hepatitis A, Norwalk-type virus, rotavirus, and adenovirus.

Protozoans - these single-celled organisms can grow up to 5 millimeters long, and are found almost entirely in aquatic environments. Pathogenic protozoans compose approximately one-third of the entire class, and can cause serious health problems such as gastrointestinal disease, dysentery, and ulceration of the liver and intestines.
Green narrative B.S. Human viruses and human pathogens die upon exposer to sea water. They can't hurt you if they're dead or broken down. But if you're concerned... don't go in the water and keep on believing that they "may" hurt you.
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Old 25-08-2015, 22:44   #53
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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It's time to line up some big law suits for Victoria and other municipalities rather than shutting down boat yards and storming private vessels.
The legal regime is a little different here than in the U.S. so "suing Victoria" requires the permission of guess who? THE CROWN! And why would "the Crown", the Governor General in Council, or the Solicitor General of Canada give it? That lot lives in Ottawa three thousand miles away.

However, it happens that the Green Party of Canada, whose leader is a political and cultural refugee from somewhere in New England (Hartford, Conn. I believe) has one single seat out of 308 in Parliament, and that seat is Saanich and the Islands, a riding whose population includes a HUGE number of super-annuated hippies who also came as refugees in the late '60s. S & I is basically a suburb of Victoria. But the Green Party cannot be a king-maker, so all that will happen by Lizzie May holding her seat in the election two month from now is that the New Democratic Party (filthy socialists!) will be deprived of a well-deserved majority in the house, and of a REAL shot at solving our ecological problems.

"Baby Ruths" (queer phrase) in anchorages is the least of them!

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Old 25-08-2015, 23:00   #54
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Green Party of Canada,
Hey at least you guys have one.

All we got are dims and pukes.
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Old 25-08-2015, 23:23   #55
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

I lived on Margarita Island Venezuela for 2 years in the mid 70's. A strain of amoeba became resistant to saltwater and numerous beach goers were infected at a beach down current from the sewage outfall in the biggest city, Porlarmar.
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Old 26-08-2015, 03:01   #56
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

Gee. If only they invented an engine to run on poo waste!
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Old 26-08-2015, 04:53   #57
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Dumping overboard doesn't bother me if you are in open water or if there is a lot of current flushing thru (and no swiming). In a small bay, that's kind of nasty.

Just a practical issue, will you ever return to the states? Florida in particular gets a little draconian in thier enforcement. If they find you with no tank, I would expect a ticket.

As far as converting to diesel, I think the location of the tank would have to be known and how easy is it to plumb into the rest of the system.
Florida is "draconian"??Because they don't like it when you dump raw sewage into their waters? Do you let people poop in your swimming pool?
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Old 26-08-2015, 06:09   #58
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

Just for fun, I did a little Google search of disease and seawater.

  • Multiple cholera outbreaks from eating raw shellfish.
  • Many scholarly papers discussing many diseases that can be passed from human waste, through fish, back to people.
  • Reasoning behind shellfish closures.
The body of evidences is quite large. Like most risks, we can always chose to ignore it. If your answer is "cook the sea food," I agree that is wise, but since you are placing others at risk by contaminating a harbor, like speeding, as a good citizen, the behavior decision is not really up to you. Is the risk from one cruiser tiny? Of course. Not much of a defense, though.
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Old 26-08-2015, 06:17   #59
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Green narrative B.S. Human viruses and human pathogens die upon exposer to sea water. They can't hurt you if they're dead or broken down. But if you're concerned... don't go in the water and keep on believing that they "may" hurt you.
A link to a New Zealand (I think) study on the importance of sunlight in breaking down sewage pathogens in seawater. They looked at pathogen concentrations over a two-day study period. Suffice to say that pathogens are not killed on contact with seawater, or in minutes, or even in hours. Concentrations of some pathogens (fecal colliform) are significantly reduced by day 2, others not so much.

Sunlight Inactivation of Fecal Bacteriophages and Bacteria in Sewage-Polluted Seawater
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Old 26-08-2015, 06:23   #60
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Re: Should I be ashamed?

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Just for fun, I did a little Google search of disease and seawater.

  • Multiple cholera outbreaks from eating raw shellfish.
  • Many scholarly papers discussing many diseases that can be passed from human waste, through fish, back to people.
  • Reasoning behind shellfish closures.
The body of evidences is quite large. Like most risks, we can always chose to ignore it. If your answer is "cook the sea food," I agree that is wise, but since you are placing others at risk by contaminating a harbor, like speeding, as a good citizen, the behavior decision is not really up to you. Is the risk from one cruiser tiny? Of course. Not much of a defense, though.
Boats in the Med and most of the rest of the world don't have holding tanks, yet... No reports of any widespread cholera outbreaks from the locals eating raw shellfish?

Nice, tactful use of the word "scholarly" in order to imply your response is smarter than mine.
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