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Old 12-01-2014, 06:25   #91
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

By the sounds of it we are not purists, if we are not doing 5 knots sailing we soon will be.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:57   #92
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Doublewammy.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:42   #93
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

On Auspicious we sail as long as we can maintain steerage. We burn more diesel in the generator (battery charging) and Espar (heat) than the main engine.

On delivery I motor more to keep the day rate cost to the owner down. It's cheaper to motor at 6 or 8 knots than sail at 2.
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:08   #94
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

Interesting discussion. It is my policy on Eider that we motor out of the mooring field (South Freeport, ME) and then sail, mostly. I think I handle my Bristol 32 reasonably well, but there is a lot of money in that harbor, and a lot of boats that people love. I am not perfect, and my 2gmf is very dependable. Also, the current at the harbor entrance can exceed 4 knots.
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:03   #95
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublewammy View Post
By the sounds of it we are not purists, if we are not doing 5 knots sailing we soon will be.
Yep, it's just a tool to get from A to B.
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Old 04-02-2014, 17:17   #96
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

Dock head, we'll put to each his own...
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Old 05-02-2014, 04:40   #97
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

I used to actually believe that it was cheating to motor before I had a boat that actually had an engine. My first 4 sailboats (catamarans) didn't have engines. Even after I first got this boat with the engine I still used to sit or sail slowly waiting for good wind.

Not anymore though! Last summer was my second summer on the boat mostly weekends only where time is quite short. The boat will do some pretty cool things with that 5hp engine running. I can do 5-6.5 knots with the engine running at 1/2 - 3/4 throttle motorsailing rather than 3 knots sailing in light conditions which makes the 17 mile lower bay crossing a lot quicker so I can fish sooner.

Also on the way home Sunday morning the wind usually dies down around 0930-1000 anyway so I have started just leaving the engine on from leaving my anchorage and can get home in 3 hours are so. Also on one return crossing late last fall, the wind had died but the waves were still large from the previous 2 days of heavy weather. Running that engine with the sails up made that trip a lot better even though the boat was rolling so much that at times the engine came out of the water on the roll. (I had to adjust my direction a bit until I could find a bit smoother water)

I just make minimal changes on the old tiller autopilot.

All this may cost a gallon or 2 or fuel for the entire weekend
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Old 05-02-2014, 06:02   #98
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

I think this topic actually can be considered in a few different parts:
-If you are just out for a day sail, even between relatively close together ports, sailing 100% of the time is just great
-If you are in "delivery mode" where your goal is to move the boat rapidly, then motoring/motor sailing at hull speed is the way to go.
-If you are on a long passage, plan to be out overnight or for days, then it makes sense to motor sparingly or not at all.
Weather, experience, light air sailing capability, distance, and time are all factors.
Motoring is never cheating unless you are racing (even then it's sometimes allowed.)
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Old 05-02-2014, 06:38   #99
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

I haven't read through the entire thread,(yes I know posting now is at my own risk)I have just skimmed through it but my question is what does it matter how you enjoy / use your boat?

The question reminds me of when I was big into backpacking/guiding and a lot of people thought that if you weren't a minimalist and organic and planting trees while you were hiking or had dread locks or carried your poop out in a bag then you weren't a "real" backpacker/outdoorsman. Why can't people just be happy that we were all enjoying being in the woods?

I sail on a lake does that mean I cheat because I don't have the experience of an ocean vessel? We motor depending on our mood. We sail if there's wind. We motor if we want to get somewhere. We sail in light winds if we have no where to be. At least we are on our boat enjoying it, just as you are. By the nature of the question you are implying that live aboards that never leave dock are cheating.

The real question should be do you enjoy your boat no matter how you choose to use it? There is no such thing as a purist, there's just people that want to think they are different.
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Old 05-02-2014, 07:45   #100
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Hedtke View Post
I think this topic actually can be considered in a few different parts:
-If you are just out for a day sail, even between relatively close together ports, sailing 100% of the time is just great
-If you are in "delivery mode" where your goal is to move the boat rapidly, then motoring/motor sailing at hull speed is the way to go.
-If you are on a long passage, plan to be out overnight or for days, then it makes sense to motor sparingly or not at all.
Weather, experience, light air sailing capability, distance, and time are all factors.
Motoring is never cheating unless you are racing (even then it's sometimes allowed.)
There are other modes as well:

1. You are on a cruise with places to go and miles to make. You are not really in a hurry, you're not on any kind of a rigid schedule, but you do need to eventually get there, and you don't want to spend your summer cruise just bobbing around for day and nights waiting for the wind to blow up. As far as I'm concerned, that's why God invented diesel engines

It's probably the exception for me to live with a speed of less than a couple of knots just to avoid motoring, and often I will put on the motor to keep the speed above 5. But then again I never have more than a month at a time. Might be different if I were cruising full time.

Some exceptions are brilliant cases, however -- if it's a beautiful calm day, and the sails at least are not flopping, it can be joyous to glide along on a mirror-like sea at 2 knots. Really, really joyous, magical. One time last year I sailed like that all the way up the Solent after a long passage from Weymouth, refusing to put on the engine because it was so lovely, and arriving after dark as the price of that. But it all depends on the circumstances.


2. You've got a tide to catch, a tidal gate you can't miss, or a harbor you won't be able to get into below a certain state of tide. Sometimes you need the engine.
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Old 08-02-2014, 23:24   #101
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

If I were to prioritize any boat with sails and engine as a live aboard.
  • Ability to take you anywhere in ‘safety and comfort’.
  • Relatively dry in a seaway with inside steerage for cold or nasty weather.
  • Inside Pilothouse should have proper Engine Controls and Gauges plus good visibility
  • Engine room should have good access for maintenance and be well soundproofed.
  • If boat is heavy (over 35 ton) then consider it a motor sailor.
  • An efficient motor sailor should be able to carry enough sail area to maintain hull speed with 15 knots on the beam in flat water.
  • Any less wind or adverse conditions, then option to supplement sail with fuel efficient propulsion at low RPM.
  • Power train sized to motor at hull speed at max 1600 RPM.
This is how I personally would prioritize and while my hull speed is 8knt… my trip averages are usually around 7 knts.
…6 knts is when the engine comes on at idle to push it up to 7

As Dockhead notes....Day sailing and puttering around is another matter.

This is the boat motor sailing at idle
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Old 10-02-2014, 14:08   #102
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

I think the issue can be connected to fuel prices too... If it was not so affordable for most of us to spend a few bucks for a few gallons of fuel, we would be more careful and sail more, no?

The issue of pollution and environmental concern is not even considered by most of us.

We are in the Bahamas since 2 months now. We are sailing in and out of every anchorage and the rest of the boats are watching us with horror. And even when they cruise from one island to the other most boats simply motor, even downwind. Then we watch them with horror.

But I also have to add, that we noticed we have "inspired" a few other sailors to use their motors less. People tend to watch what the others doing and compare. If EVERYONE is doing it then it's fine. But it isn't! And we are so radical about strictly-sailing that some friends we meet along the way get "converted" and actually sail more.
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Old 10-02-2014, 15:28   #103
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

Sailing is cheating:



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Old 17-02-2014, 18:27   #104
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

Ugh! So many of you should own motor boats. If you wanted to get there fast why did you buy a sailboat?
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Old 18-02-2014, 03:52   #105
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Re: Sailing or Cheating/Motorsailing?

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Ugh! So many of you should own motor boats. If you wanted to get there fast why did you buy a sailboat?
We do own a motorboat. It just has a really great VHF antenna mount and if we hang a sheet from the antenna mount in the right conditions, the wind will help push us along.

Then again with a flat out speed of 7.5kts, I don't think there is any way we could claim to be getting there fast.

Seriously though, we bought a sailboat because it made the most sense for long term cruising. Our previous boat of similar size, drank a gallon for every 1.5 miles of travel and the drive train ate up the last 8 ft of the boat under the cockpit. The current boat gets 6mpg if we don't worry to much about efficiency and if we back off to 5kts, we jump up to around 10mpg and the engine hangs off the back of the boat not eating up any interior space.

We have seriously considered pulling the mast, especially as we have gone thru areas with lots of overhead obstructions.
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