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Old 04-10-2012, 17:55   #106
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Add a duck? Where would he put a duck? Maybe taped to the end of the boom so you can tell where the boom end is at all times by the quacking.

Yeah I dunno but I don't think the animal rights folks are gonna like that.

Gotta get that Aflack duck if you do that. That grating voice would cut through the sharpest wind!
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Old 04-10-2012, 20:50   #107
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Gotta get that Aflack duck if you do that. That grating voice would cut through the sharpest wind!
After listening to that a few days, I would be having Peking duck for dinner.
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Old 04-10-2012, 21:24   #108
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Sorry to hear about your injuries and hoping for a speedy recovery.

Almost everything we do in life can kill us. Some slowly and some quickly (actually I won't mind being killed by good cheese and great wines).

I've done a bunch of expedition climbing to South America and the Karakorum and taught all kinds of climbing, sailing and navigation.

A common thread in all this teaching is to do the right thing even when the sun is shining and the weather is nice. Good communication, everyone knowing what is happening. No shortcuts, do the right thing all the time.

The idea is that by doing it right you instill "motor memory" and automatic attitudes that will save you when you are hypoxic or tired or hunkered down in adverse weather.

Of course I make mistakes of co-mission and omission all the time and the last time I was hurt on a sail boat was entirely due to my error.

I've not read though the 8 pages in this thread and just wanted to share this little post with no reflection on your misfortune. Just some observations on keeping it safe out there.

Regards!
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Old 04-10-2012, 21:44   #109
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
Sorry to hear about your injuries and hoping for a speedy recovery.

Almost everything we do in life can kill us. Some slowly and some quickly (actually I won't mind being killed by good cheese and great wines).

I've done a bunch of expedition climbing to South America and the Karakorum and taught all kinds of climbing, sailing and navigation.

A common thread in all this teaching is to do the right thing even when the sun is shining and the weather is nice. Good communication, everyone knowing what is happening. No shortcuts, do the right thing all the time.

The idea is that by doing it right you instill "motor memory" and automatic attitudes that will save you when you are hypoxic or tired or hunkered down in adverse weather.

Of course I make mistakes of co-mission and omission all the time and the last time I was hurt on a sail boat was entirely due to my error.

I've not read though the 8 pages in this thread and just wanted to share this little post with no reflection on your misfortune. Just some observations on keeping it safe out there.

Regards!

You're right about that, of course, but then there is the pure joy of having a noobie on your boat who feels the boat take off under her (or his) feet like a galloping horse when that noobie is at the helm and finds just the right point of sail. You know you've exposed someone to a whole lotta fun.

but that person won't have motor memory, the instincts, the "know without thinking" response in an emergency that an experienced sailor will know. I'm new enough to this to remember what it was like to be COMPLETELY new to all of that.

You need all kinds of motor memory. It needs to be instinctive and automatic to know where to hold on and when to move when the water is rough or the wind picks up.

So things will happen like what happened to Newt, and we get reminded once again that what we do is thrilling, invigorating, adventurous -- and inherently dangerous.
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Old 04-10-2012, 21:55   #110
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Better than duplicate preventers is to set the first one up with a rope strong enough to hold unconditionally, in a gybe which would break the boom, and then safeguard the boom by fitting a weak link connecting the block at the chainplates.

OK, sailors - experienced sailors around the world, will be reading this and saying (shouting?) "that's crazy" and "that's dangerous", but ... hear me out.

This weak link can be, MUST BE, set up in such a way that the 'fuse' fails progressively, each mini-failure allowing the boom further inboard, but each fresh failure being successively harder for the wind force to overcome.

One sophisticated way to achieve this is by making a 'flat pack' of webbing, such as linemen use to attach their safety lanyards to their harnesses. When they fall on a slack lanyard, the energy is absorbed so they don't end up with crush injuries from the harness. You can go to an industrial safety outlet and check these out. If you've ever rented a high-lift personnel basket (cherry picker) you may have been provided with one.

A simpler, less elegant way is to arrange a succession of a lashings, all going direct from the block to the chainplate, each longer and stronger than the last. This last lashing should be as strong as the rope.

The length of the last, non-breaking lashing should be such that the dangerous part of the boom ends up still outboard of the sheer, keeping the 'sector of death' outboard where it belongs. By this time .... because the boom has been putting up something of a fight .... the boat will have turned and/or heeled far enough that the wind load will no longer present a breaking load to the boom. Many people overestimate the force of a gybe on a prevented boom - it's free-swinging booms which generate the frightening forces. It's like the difference between a door slamming in the breeze, and the force required to hook the same door part way open in the same breeze.

(The flat-pack arrestors take seat-belt style webbing, folded back on itself multiple times, each layer being sewn to the stack in such a way that ripping it open gets progressively harder as the stack is used up.)
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Old 04-10-2012, 21:57   #111
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

"After listening to that a few days, I would be having Peking duck for dinner."

Viaduck? Vhy not a chicken?
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Old 04-10-2012, 22:20   #112
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

I'm a firm believer in the weak link for the preventer. I used a smaller four-part tackle, and it never broke until the day I hit an uncharted reef and had to crash gybe. It would have been pretty ugly if it hadn't given way.

I never release my preventer until I drop the mainsail. With the Dutchman system, I just head up till the main luffs, then let go the halyard. The boom is captured by the preventer and the mainsheet, so it doesn't swing around in a cross sea.
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Old 04-10-2012, 23:21   #113
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

I saw, several pages back, someone asked what people use as preventers. I've made one that we use on our main boom on our ketch, but Jim Cate wrote it better, so I'll quote, bears repeating:

On both Insatiable I (which had a sail plan similar to your Valiant) and our current boat which is fractional rigged with a really big mainsail, we installed a tackle on each side. These 3-part "handy-billies" lead from about the 1/3 point on the boom to a strong point at the rail just aft of the chainplates, with the tails lead back to the cockpit and a secondary winch. Whenever we are off the wind, the leeward one is tensioned. This acts both as a preventer and a powerful vang.
________________________________

Difference is, we only have one "handy-billy", but we should have two. Overkill, maybe, but so what. Added to the mainsheet, it really does "prevent". One on each side means you can do a controlled jibe. All good.

Easy to make your own......check out the example in Ferenc Mate's "The Finely Fitted Yacht". If you don't have that book, well, go online and get it.....old but true.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:25   #114
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

As usual, many good points from many experienced sailors. The mainsheet up on the hard dodger ( aka like the Hunter) Anyone out there using that system? Does the mainsheet get in the way? I do not fore see having a redundant preventer, just one on each midship cleat that together with the main sheet provide 3point grounding of the boom at all points of sail.
As for shortening the boom, I would just be modernizing to the mid 80s when they did have a shorter boom. And it would get the mainsheet out of the cockpit.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:07   #115
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Newt,

Keep going with your recovery! This thread made me think about booms again. I've been lucky with booms so far but my wife got clobbered badly once on a J/24... plenty frightening.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:21   #116
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

One other thing - advocates of keeping the main up in heavy downwind sailing have stated on the thread the usefulness of blanketing the jib with the main for lowering the jib. I agree, except I usually only have a whiff of jib out. Can I blanket with the staysail? I was going 7 knots the other day with just the stay sail!
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:35   #117
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Newt

Before you move the traveller, you need to get someone who can figure the forces and stresses involved. I wanted to move my traveller to the coach roof (exactly where the Sun Odyssey has it), but a boat designer advised against it since the forces were just too great. Moving it would have involved shortening the boom, reducing the mainsail area etc etc etc.

You have a targa bar. Why not just mount the traveller on the targa? Much easier and you won't have the potential problems. If you mount it there, you'll have to be a bit more lively with your kicking strap.

get well soon
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:32   #118
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Hey Newt,

Bad accident and we are glad here to hear you are, well, OK. Sending you our best health vibes - heal soon!

On our boat the rules are strict: 1) stay afloat, 2) stay onboard, 3) brake no bones, 4) break no equipment. Sure, at time the action happens too swiftly too apply any rules.

Dream the future voyages while you are getting well!

Hugs,
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:19   #119
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Well that went well. Got a nice rod in my arm and sore, but as mentioned a few times on this forum, I could be sleeping with the fishes...
I am looking at :
Shortening my boom

Reactionary and bad for boat performance...

Placing the main sheet on top of a hard dodger

Possible but don't ya already have enough crap on the back?

Incorporating two preventers- one on each midship cleat

You had a preventer rigged remember?

Oh yeah and a gallows on top of the hard dodger too
Overkill?
Yeah, overkill. How about ya just stay out of the way of powered up things that can move in a Gybe and hurt ya?
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:25   #120
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
One other thing - advocates of keeping the main up in heavy downwind sailing have stated on the thread the usefulness of blanketing the jib with the main for lowering the jib. I agree, except I usually only have a whiff of jib out. Can I blanket with the staysail? I was going 7 knots the other day with just the stay sail!

Why run the main at all in anything over twenty knots offwind unless crewed up with good sailors? It's one thing when ya have an experienced, good crew. Quite another sailing single or with short timers...
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