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Old 15-10-2012, 00:34   #361
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Last time I broke a bone the doc told me it too about 3 weeks to knit and 3 months to heal.I think the healing time can be accelerated by light exercise, the the first 3 wks are vital to healing.
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Old 15-10-2012, 00:43   #362
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

G'Day Newt,

I'd be happy to post pix of our setup, but right now the mast is out and lying on the ground. If you wish, I'll take some snaps when we get it back in the boat and the rigging restablished. Don't know when that will be, for we're now 4 weeks into a one week promise. AAhhhh, Queensland...

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 15-10-2012, 00:54   #363
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Originally Posted by s/v Beth
I am very interested in how their various systems work. Would anyone post pictures of their systems? Health update: I am now pretty mobile, waiting for surgeon to take out the stitches and let me start some weight bearing. Still hurts, but now it just feels like a good mugging. Almost down to no pain meds. Still have to get the boat ready for winter.
Non pics, I'm afraid, but I have a length of climbing dyneema running from a cleat on the toe rail by the cockpit, through a block midships then back outside to the cockpit terminating in a snap shackle. When in usei it attaches to a short piece of line chocked around the end of the boom. One both sides permanently rigged. The angle would be a little bit better from the bow but not much in it. Gybing, the preventer gets eased the the boat gybed using the man sheet as normal, sail a bit high for a moment while the other preventer is set. Easy from the cockpit using the extra line on the boom. Then I'll ease the boom a bit , cleat off the preventer and tighten up the main sheet to get some load onto the preventer. Works a treat, great in light airs as well, I rerigged the topping lift to a cleat on he backstay so between the topping lift, mainsheet and preventer you can lock off the boom wherever you want. Boom gallows are wonderful as well
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Old 15-10-2012, 01:00   #364
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEE View Post
I don't know anybody who has been sailing very long that hasn't been caught in an accidental jibe. I was on a boat with experienced crew that had just finished a race. Since we were hauling down the jibe, and poppin beer can tops, we passed the helm over to a girl who was on her first race. The jib was down, and we were all shooting the bull, not paying a lot of attention to what was going on. The boat had slowed down to about 4 knots, but while I was talking to the skipper, the girl at the helm let the wind pass over the stern, and WHAM! Captain got a goose egg.

Since then I have learned accidental jibes seems to happen way more when somebody without much experience is at the helm. It was not the fact a girl was at the helm that jibed the boat, but the fact everybody on board seemed to take it for granted that she would have enough sense not to jibe the boat that caused the accident. Since then, whenever I put a beginner at the helm if we are close to running, I put the boat on a beam reach before turning over to a beginner if I am going to be up front or close to the boom doing anything.

Sailing is not an inherrently dangerous activity in the absence of inexperience. If you don't have reason to trust the helm person, put the boat on a broad reach and hit the autopilot.
I've been sailing for 35 years and have had exactly zero accidental gybes -- 0 (on cruising boats; I'm not counting racing dinghies). I think Bash said something similar. Of course but for the grace of God go I, and I'm sure luck has been a considerable factor, but in all things in life I find that the more meticulously careful I am, the luckier I am . . . .

A mid-boom preventer is better than none, so if you don't have any other practical way to rig it, then I guess it's better than nothing.

But I can't agree that preventing from the boom-end saves the boom at the expense of the crew. A broken boom scything through the cockpit is just as dangerous, if not more so, than a whole one.

If you're short handed, just rig two preventers with lines long enough not to need to be re-rigged on every tack. Then there is no reason to go to the foredeck. Or you can put snap shackles on the end of them, so you rerig only at the boom as Conachar does. I don't do any of this because my boat has wide side decks and so it's not a big deal to get to the cleats I use for my preventers.

To avoid an accident like Newt's, besides careful helming, keeping tension on the preventer as you bring in the boom will keep it under control.

When running in strong conditions, I don't use my mainsail at all, as as been previously discussed. This saves any risk of dipping the boom and saves the risks which go with handling the run-out boom in heavy weather with rolling etc.

If it makes Newt feel any better -- a race training boat running the Myth of Malham offshore race suffered a similar accident last year which horribly injured one crewman -- see http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...tex_Report.pdf. Similar because it was caused by inexperienced crew at the helm. The yacht was running with the boom run out and no preventer. I think it's good practice to rig a preventer whenever there is enough mainsheet out for the boom to get out of control, not just when running close to DDW. Not relevant to Newt's accident, of course.
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Old 15-10-2012, 08:51   #365
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
I am very interested in how their various systems work. Would anyone post pictures of their systems? Health update: I am now pretty mobile, waiting for surgeon to take out the stitches and let me start some weight bearing. Still hurts, but now it just feels like a good mugging. Almost down to no pain meds. Still have to get the boat ready for winter.
Newt--

Were you actually stiched or stapled? In my case I was stapled back together--107 of'em--and I felt every single one of them, especially when they were taking them out!!!!! (I had to make my Doc take a couple of breaks during the process--because I needed them!). Good luck with that!

Like Dockhead, we have very rarely ever suffered an accidental gybe and as mentioned by Tee, then only when an inexperienced person was on the helm. (When we were first dating, my wife nearly took my head off in Newport Harbor, Ca-- by looking at other yachts rather than the Windex! I escaped serious injury--bloody due to a low hanging shackle but not serious--and the yacht was not damaged, fortunately.)

When sailing off the wind in a seaway we now always rig a preventer but we never sail so far off the wind that the sail is allowed to come in contact with the shrouds/rigging so the angle of the boom is always relatively aft of the shroud base. We use a Dutchman Boom brake that can be shackled to the lead block for our mainsheet, just forward of where our Garhaurer solid vang attaches to the underside of the boom. The brake line is snap-shackled to the toe-rail just aft of the shrouds on one side, led through the brake and to a snatch block snap-shackled to the toe rail on the opposit side of the yacht and then aft to a secondary winch that allows us the adjust the tension on the line pretty effectively.

FWIW...
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Old 15-10-2012, 10:42   #366
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'Day Newt,

I'd be happy to post pix of our setup, but right now the mast is out and lying on the ground. If you wish, I'll take some snaps when we get it back in the boat and the rigging restablished. Don't know when that will be, for we're now 4 weeks into a one week promise. AAhhhh, Queensland...

Cheers,

Jim
Spent 2 years of my life in Queensland. Now that spring is on the way they should get a little faster. Can't have work interfering with fishing!
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Old 15-10-2012, 11:10   #367
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

HyLyte- since I work with these surgeons on a daily basis I got sewn up. :-)
To all others who have contributed to this amazing discussion: what about this setup?
I will modify the midship cleats with a s/s ring and attach a snatch block to each one. I would place a clutch on the outside rail next to the cockpit. Then one continuous sheet would run from the clutch through the block tied off at the boom and down through the other snatch block and through the opposite clutch. Varly out of the way yet you are able to belay the boom across.
If you who have the preventer always on do gybe, do you ever try to pull the boom across first and then turn the boat? Does that make any difference?
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Old 15-10-2012, 14:30   #368
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
HyLyte- since I work with these surgeons on a daily basis I got sewn up. :-)
To all others who have contributed to this amazing discussion: what about this setup?
I will modify the midship cleats with a s/s ring and attach a snatch block to each one. I would place a clutch on the outside rail next to the cockpit. Then one continuous sheet would run from the clutch through the block tied off at the boom and down through the other snatch block and through the opposite clutch. Varly out of the way yet you are able to belay the boom across.
Newt
Firstly, I wouldn't personally use snatch blocks. The preventer vangs should remain permanently rigged, so a plain block will be a lot stronger and reliable and less expensive (plain bearings, not rolling element)

Secondly, rather than terminating the vang line at the boom, I'd terminate it at the chainplate, or padeye (or in your case, if it's in the ideal location - the ring on the cleat - make sure both are strong enough - what I'm suggesting won't change the load on the cleat though...). For any boat over 20-25' you really want a 2:1 purchase (as this implies) and over 40-45' 3:1, to keep the loads manageable on the tail.

I recommend fitting a progressive shock-absorbing 'fuse' to connect this side-deck block to the boat. Refer earlier posts if you want more detail. The essential point is that once the fuse has finished 'failing', the block has not moved far enough to allow a squared-off boom to swing inboard of the lifelines.

Take the rope to an even stronger single-sheave plain block attached to the side of the boom (perhaps with a wide webbing strop, or a fitted tang with a large baseplate to spread the load ) then back down to the cleat-mounted block, then back to a spare winch if you have one (better than a clutch for surging the line out under severe load)

I attach a photo which should kill two birds with one stone - earlier in the thread people were talking about sailing in strong conditions under staysail alone - this shows us happily balanced under such a rig, and although you can't see it in the photo, the running backstays from the top spreaders (3 spreader rig, staysail stay to the top spreaders, babystay to the second set) are BOTH set up hard, making the mast column wonderfully stable.

In the photo, both preventer/vang purchases are set up against the topping lift, keeping the boom stable. It's not obvious from the photo but this is a pretty generous sized boom for a 40', as it's a Leisurefurl with a tall rig (and a deep fin keel with a ballast bulb)
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Old 15-10-2012, 14:56   #369
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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If you who have the preventer always on do gybe, do you ever try to pull the boom across first and then turn the boat? Does that make any difference?
With a boom end preventer, you have to do that.

With a vang preventer I virtually never do, I generally bring the boom in a little if winds are strong, snugging the mainsheet against the preventer, and then steering onto the new gybe until the boom lifts indicating it's on the point of a gybe. Then I hold course and ease the preventer vang tail smoothly but rapidly with a couple of turns on a spare winch.

But I might bring the boom in further, even to the midline, if I was on a boat with no spare winch to surge the tail, and too much sail up for the wind strength. [The only other time you have to bring the boom amidships with the sheet is when you need to gybe without changing course, perhaps because you're alongside another vessel or obstruction, or in very large seas where you might want to avoid reaching up on too hot an angle]

It's hard to keep the vang tail snug while pulling the boom in and steering through the gybe, but possible with the right gear, layout and practice. You must have the vang tight at the moment the wind crosses the leech, to prevent shock loads, which in practice means having it tight all the time, unless conditions are very settled.

It's a good skill to have, but not a manoeuvre to be recommended under normal circumstances: if you plan to use the mainsheet to gybe, best to concentrate on using that to control the boom in the traditional way, and leave the preventer vang free running until the boom is out on the new side.

There's one other point to be made but the terminology gets a bit confusing: the centreline vang (kicking strap, in UK English) should remain tight throughout all these manoeuvres.
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Old 15-10-2012, 15:09   #370
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
If you who have the preventer always on do gybe, do you ever try to pull the boom across first and then turn the boat? Does that make any difference?
Whether or not you have the preventers on, it's a good idea to manage your gybe with the mainsheet. Crank it in to center the boom just before you turn through the wind, turn well through so you are 20 or 30 degrees off of DDW, then let out the mainsheet again, keeping the preventer good and tight as the mainsheet comes out, then head off again to correct your course.

This is a lot of work on our boat - more than 20 foot boom, end boom sheeting, triple purchase - so an amazing length of mainsheet to crank in and out, but it is the correct, safe way to do it. With nearly 700 square feet of mainsail, the forces can be huge, and you do NOT want to risk a gybe going wrong.

It takes three or better four crew to do this properly - one on the helm, one on the mainsheet, one taking up slack on the preventer as the mainsheet comes out. If shorthanded, you have to improvise.
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Old 15-10-2012, 15:11   #371
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Excellent setup Andrew. The only part of it I don't like (for obvious reasons) is the mainsheet coming into the cockpit. What kind of speed where you making into the wind? Where were you?
The multiple purchase was something I had worried about, just had not voiced. I usually run my lines through a clutch then a grinder. Just seems to be a good combination.
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Old 15-10-2012, 15:17   #372
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Whether or not you have the preventers on, it's a good idea to manage your gybe with the mainsheet. Crank it in to center the boom just before you turn through the wind, turn well through so you are 20 or 30 degrees off of DDW, then let out the mainsheet again, keeping the preventer good and tight as the mainsheet comes out, then head off again to correct your course.

This is a lot of work on our boat - more than 20 foot boom, end boom sheeting, triple purchase - so an amazing length of mainsheet to crank in and out, but it is the correct, safe way to do it. With nearly 700 square feet of mainsail, the forces can be huge, and you do NOT want to risk a gybe going wrong.

It takes three or better four crew to do this properly - one on the helm, one on the mainsheet, one taking up slack on the preventer as the mainsheet comes out. If shorthanded, you have to improvise.
This is the second pearl I have learned today. Thank you for setting me straight ( you and Andrew).
You would think I learned to sail in the Caribbean or something...
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Old 15-10-2012, 15:19   #373
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Newt
Firstly, I wouldn't personally use snatch blocks. The preventer vangs should remain permanently rigged, so a plain block will be a lot stronger and reliable and less expensive (plain bearings, not rolling element)

Secondly, rather than terminating the vang line at the boom, I'd terminate it at the chainplate, or padeye (or in your case, if it's in the ideal location - the ring on the cleat - make sure both are strong enough - what I'm suggesting won't change the load on the cleat though...). For any boat over 20-25' you really want a 2:1 purchase (as this implies) and over 40-45' 3:1, to keep the loads manageable on the tail.

I recommend fitting a progressive shock-absorbing 'fuse' to connect this side-deck block to the boat. Refer earlier posts if you want more detail. The essential point is that once the fuse has finished 'failing', the block has not moved far enough to allow a squared-off boom to swing inboard of the lifelines.

Take the rope to an even stronger single-sheave plain block attached to the side of the boom (perhaps with a wide webbing strop, or a fitted tang with a large baseplate to spread the load ) then back down to the cleat-mounted block, then back to a spare winch if you have one (better than a clutch for surging the line out under severe load)

I attach a photo which should kill two birds with one stone - earlier in the thread people were talking about sailing in strong conditions under staysail alone - this shows us happily balanced under such a rig, and although you can't see it in the photo, the running backstays from the top spreaders (3 spreader rig, staysail stay to the top spreaders, babystay to the second set) are BOTH set up hard, making the mast column wonderfully stable.

In the photo, both preventer/vang purchases are set up against the topping lift, keeping the boom stable. It's not obvious from the photo but this is a pretty generous sized boom for a 40', as it's a Leisurefurl with a tall rig (and a deep fin keel with a ballast bulb)
Wow, that's an impressive photo! What kind of boat is that - 40 feet and three spreaders?! Must have quite a wind to make a 45 degree heel with staysail alone!
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Old 15-10-2012, 15:19   #374
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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.......A mid-boom preventer is better than none, so if you don't have any other practical way to rig it, then I guess it's better than nothing.

But I can't agree that preventing from the boom-end saves the boom at the expense of the crew. A broken boom scything through the cockpit is just as dangerous, if not more so, than a whole one..

Granted, this could be a nightmare scenario .... Which is why I recommend a "fuse".

We also should recognise that broken booms are rare in comparison with intact booms, when you consider instances of booms sweeping across cockpits. A great many cruising boats have changed to vang preventers in the parts of the world I sail, and the prevalence of broken booms is not seeming to rise.

I would venture that the most common root cause is people overtightening the mainsheet against a rigid vang, when doing a harbour stow. The stress concentrations at the vang attachment can be horrendous, and the boom can be crippled so that it fails prematurely, from this point, at a later date.

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.......
To avoid an accident like Newt's, besides careful helming, keeping tension on the preventer as you bring in the boom will keep it under control.
....
Because of the geometry, the angle of a boom-end preventer means that the tension in the preventer, and the compression on the gooseneck, can both reach excessive levels if this method is relied on as the boom gets nearer to midships.

Fine if the sail is already partly dropped, though, so you're only controlling the swing weight of the boom, which I assume is what you mean.
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Old 15-10-2012, 15:23   #375
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
Excellent setup Andrew. The only part of it I don't like (for obvious reasons) is the mainsheet coming into the cockpit. What kind of speed where you making into the wind? Where were you?
The multiple purchase was something I had worried about, just had not voiced. I usually run my lines through a clutch then a grinder. Just seems to be a good combination.
Multiple purchase is good if you are preventing mid boom - the forces on the preventer are multiplied. I prevent end boom and happily use single purchase, the line simply turned around a cleat (you don't mind a little friction) and belayed to a spinnaker sheet winch.
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