sailboats can injure and kill

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by atoll

on a 2500 mile downwind passage you will end up sailing 25% further using that technique!or 25 days on a 20 day passage!

nothing wrong with that,but crossing an ocean with multiple island stops i know where i would rather spend those extra days!

Not if you're going faster with the lower wind angle. Depends on the boat and the wind, but it is often much faster and more pleasant to gybe downwind instead of going ddw.

Not sure if this relates to newt, though!

[minaret]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

Not if you're going faster with the lower wind angle. Depends on the boat and the wind, but it is often much faster and more pleasant to gybe downwind instead of going ddw.

Not sure if this relates to newt, though!

Sure you might be sailing faster, but that doesn't change the added distance. Either you gybe often to reduce the extra mileage sailed, greatly increasing the workload on crew and wear and tear on boat, or you add 25% or more to the mileage sailed, which also obviously increases wear and tear. You might be sailing faster, so it might not take you much more time, but the distance traveled will be much longer...

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by minaret

Sure you might be sailing faster, but that doesn't change the added distance. Either you gybe often to reduce the extra mileage sailed, greatly increasing the workload on crew and wear and tear on boat, or you add 25% or more to the mileage sailed, which also obviously increases wear and tear. You might be sailing faster, so it might not take you much more time, but the distance traveled will be much longer...

Actually gybes aren't hard on either crew or equipment if done right. I prefer them when single-handing. Don't much care if I cover a little more distance for ease of sailing single-handed. Handling a pole for the headsail is extra work, too.

Gybing downwind is easy on my boat, and plenty fast enough. YMMV and all that. Every boat is a trade off.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Actually gybes aren't hard on either crew or equipment if done right. I prefer them when single-handing. Don't much care if I cover a little more distance for ease of sailing single-handed. Handling a pole for the headsail is extra work, too.

Gybing downwind is easy on my boat, and plenty fast enough. YMMV and all that. Every boat is a trade off.

Can you guarantee that they will be "done right" 100% of the time? This is why I say it adds to wear and tear, the odds of a damaging uncontrolled gybe go up the more you do it. I think this thread should be proof of that. I agree, every boat is a trade off, as is every technique. But sometimes you come out ahead on the trade and sometimes you are the loser. It can be hard to determine which one of these is the actual case. Which is probably why we spend so much time here discussing these things...

[atoll]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

Not if you're going faster with the lower wind angle. Depends on the boat and the wind, but it is often much faster and more pleasant to gybe downwind instead of going ddw.

Not sure if this relates to newt, though!

slower in the right direction is faster than faster in the wrong direction! over a 25 degree course deviation!

how ever on longer passages wind shifts can be used to your advantage if you have good weather information as an approaching low pressure system to the south in the southern hemisphere or north in the northen hemisphere will shift the mean wind over a 10 day period by 15-20 degrees on tropical trans ocean passages.

[micah719]

Ah, looking forward to those tame junk sails where gybing is no worry. Also looking forward to the intriguing yet probably insane experiment of hoisting a dipping lug over a junk main on a small open yawl...very light winds only, of course. About 45 sq m of sail on 6m of boat. Lifejacket mandatory...

[EzzyD]

Originally Posted by minaret

Sure you might be sailing faster, but that doesn't change the added distance. Either you gybe often to reduce the extra mileage sailed, greatly increasing the workload on crew and wear and tear on boat, or you add 25% or more to the mileage sailed, which also obviously increases wear and tear. You might be sailing faster, so it might not take you much more time, but the distance traveled will be much longer...

The key is not SOG ( Speed over Ground ) but VMG (Velocity Made Good).

It may appear counter intuitive, yet... at times it is faster to get to a mark (destination) while not going in a direct line. This is due to the difference in how a boat handles at different points of the wind. Racers generally know this like the back of their hand, but this is left out or not understood by all cruisers. As to wear and tear.... that is a subject that can be the source of more opinions then boats......

[s/v Beth]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Yeah -- I think I'm gonna put a big red sticker on the boom that says "Newt!"

Rather than putting an amphibian on your boom ( which you are trying to avoid being) A simple Mallard head would work- reminding you to" duck". :-)
I am recovering nicely Alan, thanks for asking. I am following this conversation with great interest, as I always seem to be out in water were the swell is from one direction and the wind and the wind waves from another. I think a reefed main centered might work well for that.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by EzzyD

The key is not SOG ( Speed over Ground ) but VMG (Velocity Made Good).

It may appear counter intuitive, yet... at times it is faster to get to a mark (destination) while not going in a direct line. This is due to the difference in how a boat handles at different points of the wind. Racers generally know this like the back of their hand, but this is left out or not understood by all cruisers. As to wear and tear.... that is a subject that can be the source of more opinions then boats......

Oh, I agree. But I also think that there is a huge difference between doing this on a race boat with crew on a relatively small race course, and doing this while passage making with short crew on a boat that will not have repair facilities and parts handy. I already said it may not cost you more time, in fact it might save you some, but it will also put more risk and wear on the boat and crew.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

Rather than putting an amphibian on your boom ( which you are trying to avoid being) A simple Mallard head would work- reminding you to" duck". :-)
I am recovering nicely Alan, thanks for asking. I am following this conversation with great interest, as I always seem to be out in water were the swell is from one direction and the wind and the wind waves from another. I think a reefed main centered might work well for that.

i don't know about having the main centered,only do that if motor sailing to stop the boat rolling,having the boom at 45 degrees,and a poled out jib gives great balance with winds on the stern quarter.

running a preventer for the boom and uphaul and fore aft down hauls keeps the pole and boom safe as well

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by EzzyD

The key is not SOG ( Speed over Ground ) but VMG (Velocity Made Good).

It may appear counter intuitive, yet... at times it is faster to get to a mark (destination) while not going in a direct line. This is due to the difference in how a boat handles at different points of the wind. Racers generally know this like the back of their hand, but this is left out or not understood by all cruisers. As to wear and tear.... that is a subject that can be the source of more opinions then boats......

Bingo - we have a winner.

[minaret]

A good conversation. I think it points out that modern boats that don't sail DDW well probably aren't the best bluewater tradewind passagemakers. This is one of the reasons that the ketch rig is still around, if you are going to make long blue water passages, it makes sense to be able to do it DDW efficiently without constantly gybing. It's nice to spend a day or more without touching a sheet...

[atoll]

Originally Posted by EzzyD

The key is not SOG ( Speed over Ground ) but VMG (Velocity Made Good).

It may appear counter intuitive, yet... at times it is faster to get to a mark (destination) while not going in a direct line. This is due to the difference in how a boat handles at different points of the wind. Racers generally know this like the back of their hand, but this is left out or not understood by all cruisers. As to wear and tear.... that is a subject that can be the source of more opinions then boats......

the thing that cruisers know that racers dont is that it is all about getting there in one piece,with minimal wear and effort,
time and speed are not a great concern,
but the time and effort repairing streched sails,damaged rigging,broken booms etc seriously impact on our persuit of fun when arriving at the next tropical haven......waiting for dhl sucks!

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by minaret

Oh, I agree. But I also think that there is a huge difference between doing this on a race boat with crew on a relatively small race course, and doing this while passage making with short crew on a boat that will not have repair facilities and parts handy. I already said it may not cost you more time, in fact it might save you some, but it will also put more risk and wear on the boat and crew.

Gybing is easy and safe in any conditions that you'd likely to be "gybing downwind" in order to increase VMG to your destination.

If you're able to get hull speed DDW, then this is your fastest way to get to your destination since heading up won't make you any faster (though it may be worth it due to comfort).

In lighter conditions (where heating it up can make a large difference to VMG as well as making for a more comfortable ride), gybing is easy and it doesn't have to be often. Just gybe on the watch changes. Takes less than a minute and keeps you from getting too bored.

[Therapy]

Seems you are going to be well some day Newt. svHyLyte (I have to go back to look at that spelling every time - ) is pretty smart and also seems to have first hand info. I only help the docs with the surgery. Never saw them after.

But my wife had to do some of those color-coded-rubber band-exercises. It is true the physical therapists set up programs for the "normal" people. It is no fun. It hurts. Most (me included more than once) can't see far enough in the future to push through the pain. Some of us are just sissies I guess.

Too bad so many forgot that you purposely untied the preventer. And know how to use one.

And that the boat continued to turn, un benknownst to all.