Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-10-2012, 15:05   #256
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll

on a 2500 mile downwind passage you will end up sailing 25% further using that technique!or 25 days on a 20 day passage!

nothing wrong with that,but crossing an ocean with multiple island stops i know where i would rather spend those extra days!
Not if you're going faster with the lower wind angle. Depends on the boat and the wind, but it is often much faster and more pleasant to gybe downwind instead of going ddw.

Not sure if this relates to newt, though!
__________________

__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:10   #257
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Not if you're going faster with the lower wind angle. Depends on the boat and the wind, but it is often much faster and more pleasant to gybe downwind instead of going ddw.

Not sure if this relates to newt, though!

Sure you might be sailing faster, but that doesn't change the added distance. Either you gybe often to reduce the extra mileage sailed, greatly increasing the workload on crew and wear and tear on boat, or you add 25% or more to the mileage sailed, which also obviously increases wear and tear. You might be sailing faster, so it might not take you much more time, but the distance traveled will be much longer...
__________________

__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:13   #258
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Sure you might be sailing faster, but that doesn't change the added distance. Either you gybe often to reduce the extra mileage sailed, greatly increasing the workload on crew and wear and tear on boat, or you add 25% or more to the mileage sailed, which also obviously increases wear and tear. You might be sailing faster, so it might not take you much more time, but the distance traveled will be much longer...

Actually gybes aren't hard on either crew or equipment if done right. I prefer them when single-handing. Don't much care if I cover a little more distance for ease of sailing single-handed. Handling a pole for the headsail is extra work, too.

Gybing downwind is easy on my boat, and plenty fast enough. YMMV and all that. Every boat is a trade off.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:19   #259
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Actually gybes aren't hard on either crew or equipment if done right. I prefer them when single-handing. Don't much care if I cover a little more distance for ease of sailing single-handed. Handling a pole for the headsail is extra work, too.

Gybing downwind is easy on my boat, and plenty fast enough. YMMV and all that. Every boat is a trade off.

Can you guarantee that they will be "done right" 100% of the time? This is why I say it adds to wear and tear, the odds of a damaging uncontrolled gybe go up the more you do it. I think this thread should be proof of that. I agree, every boat is a trade off, as is every technique. But sometimes you come out ahead on the trade and sometimes you are the loser. It can be hard to determine which one of these is the actual case. Which is probably why we spend so much time here discussing these things...
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:19   #260
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Not if you're going faster with the lower wind angle. Depends on the boat and the wind, but it is often much faster and more pleasant to gybe downwind instead of going ddw.

Not sure if this relates to newt, though!
slower in the right direction is faster than faster in the wrong direction! over a 25 degree course deviation!

how ever on longer passages wind shifts can be used to your advantage if you have good weather information as an approaching low pressure system to the south in the southern hemisphere or north in the northen hemisphere will shift the mean wind over a 10 day period by 15-20 degrees on tropical trans ocean passages.
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:21   #261
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Ah, looking forward to those tame junk sails where gybing is no worry. Also looking forward to the intriguing yet probably insane experiment of hoisting a dipping lug over a junk main on a small open yawl...very light winds only, of course. About 45 sq m of sail on 6m of boat. Lifejacket mandatory...
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:25   #262
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 156
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Sure you might be sailing faster, but that doesn't change the added distance. Either you gybe often to reduce the extra mileage sailed, greatly increasing the workload on crew and wear and tear on boat, or you add 25% or more to the mileage sailed, which also obviously increases wear and tear. You might be sailing faster, so it might not take you much more time, but the distance traveled will be much longer...
The key is not SOG ( Speed over Ground ) but VMG (Velocity Made Good).

It may appear counter intuitive, yet... at times it is faster to get to a mark (destination) while not going in a direct line. This is due to the difference in how a boat handles at different points of the wind. Racers generally know this like the back of their hand, but this is left out or not understood by all cruisers. As to wear and tear.... that is a subject that can be the source of more opinions then boats......
__________________
EzzyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:30   #263
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Yeah -- I think I'm gonna put a big red sticker on the boom that says "Newt!"
Rather than putting an amphibian on your boom ( which you are trying to avoid being) A simple Mallard head would work- reminding you to" duck". :-)
I am recovering nicely Alan, thanks for asking. I am following this conversation with great interest, as I always seem to be out in water were the swell is from one direction and the wind and the wind waves from another. I think a reefed main centered might work well for that.
__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:31   #264
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by EzzyD View Post
The key is not SOG ( Speed over Ground ) but VMG (Velocity Made Good).

It may appear counter intuitive, yet... at times it is faster to get to a mark (destination) while not going in a direct line. This is due to the difference in how a boat handles at different points of the wind. Racers generally know this like the back of their hand, but this is left out or not understood by all cruisers. As to wear and tear.... that is a subject that can be the source of more opinions then boats......

Oh, I agree. But I also think that there is a huge difference between doing this on a race boat with crew on a relatively small race course, and doing this while passage making with short crew on a boat that will not have repair facilities and parts handy. I already said it may not cost you more time, in fact it might save you some, but it will also put more risk and wear on the boat and crew.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:41   #265
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
Rather than putting an amphibian on your boom ( which you are trying to avoid being) A simple Mallard head would work- reminding you to" duck". :-)
I am recovering nicely Alan, thanks for asking. I am following this conversation with great interest, as I always seem to be out in water were the swell is from one direction and the wind and the wind waves from another. I think a reefed main centered might work well for that.
i don't know about having the main centered,only do that if motor sailing to stop the boat rolling,having the boom at 45 degrees,and a poled out jib gives great balance with winds on the stern quarter.

running a preventer for the boom and uphaul and fore aft down hauls keeps the pole and boom safe as well
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 15:54   #266
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,040
Images: 1
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by EzzyD View Post
The key is not SOG ( Speed over Ground ) but VMG (Velocity Made Good).

It may appear counter intuitive, yet... at times it is faster to get to a mark (destination) while not going in a direct line. This is due to the difference in how a boat handles at different points of the wind. Racers generally know this like the back of their hand, but this is left out or not understood by all cruisers. As to wear and tear.... that is a subject that can be the source of more opinions then boats......
Bingo - we have a winner.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 16:03   #267
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

A good conversation. I think it points out that modern boats that don't sail DDW well probably aren't the best bluewater tradewind passagemakers. This is one of the reasons that the ketch rig is still around, if you are going to make long blue water passages, it makes sense to be able to do it DDW efficiently without constantly gybing. It's nice to spend a day or more without touching a sheet...
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 16:19   #268
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by EzzyD View Post
The key is not SOG ( Speed over Ground ) but VMG (Velocity Made Good).

It may appear counter intuitive, yet... at times it is faster to get to a mark (destination) while not going in a direct line. This is due to the difference in how a boat handles at different points of the wind. Racers generally know this like the back of their hand, but this is left out or not understood by all cruisers. As to wear and tear.... that is a subject that can be the source of more opinions then boats......
the thing that cruisers know that racers dont is that it is all about getting there in one piece,with minimal wear and effort,
time and speed are not a great concern,
but the time and effort repairing streched sails,damaged rigging,broken booms etc seriously impact on our persuit of fun when arriving at the next tropical haven......waiting for dhl sucks!
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 16:54   #269
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Oh, I agree. But I also think that there is a huge difference between doing this on a race boat with crew on a relatively small race course, and doing this while passage making with short crew on a boat that will not have repair facilities and parts handy. I already said it may not cost you more time, in fact it might save you some, but it will also put more risk and wear on the boat and crew.
Gybing is easy and safe in any conditions that you'd likely to be "gybing downwind" in order to increase VMG to your destination.

If you're able to get hull speed DDW, then this is your fastest way to get to your destination since heading up won't make you any faster (though it may be worth it due to comfort).

In lighter conditions (where heating it up can make a large difference to VMG as well as making for a more comfortable ride), gybing is easy and it doesn't have to be often. Just gybe on the watch changes. Takes less than a minute and keeps you from getting too bored.
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 18:02   #270
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Seems you are going to be well some day Newt. svHyLyte (I have to go back to look at that spelling every time - ) is pretty smart and also seems to have first hand info. I only help the docs with the surgery. Never saw them after.

But my wife had to do some of those color-coded-rubber band-exercises. It is true the physical therapists set up programs for the "normal" people. It is no fun. It hurts. Most (me included more than once) can't see far enough in the future to push through the pain. Some of us are just sissies I guess.

Too bad so many forgot that you purposely untied the preventer. And know how to use one.

And that the boat continued to turn, un benknownst to all.
__________________

__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.