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Old 09-10-2012, 09:59   #241
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

Jack what does those books say about the strait ?
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:54   #242
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Jack what does those books say about the strait ?
It can depend on the prevailing/systemic winds. A NW wind will be increased by the onshore breeze that develops during the day. At night the offshore breeze can cancel out the NW. That is why Swiftsure is often called driftsure.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:50   #243
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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My experience has been to the contrary. My last boat was a fraction-rigged, bulb-keeled sloop, and was extremely stable off the wind with jib only. My current boat is a masthead-rigged, fin-keeled sloop, and it not only sails well off the wind with jib only, but it also close-reaches respectably with just the jb, especially in heavy air.

Yesterday, coming back from the final Americas Cup World Series fleet race, we saw 30 knots apparent while crossing the Berkeley Slot, and we skittered along at eight knots under just the high-clew 85% jib (Yankee). Not quite hull speed, but close enough to get us home before sunset.
+1

Every boat I've ever sailed was very stable downwind with jib alone. I can hardly imagine how it could be otherwise -- the center of effort of the sail is far ahead of the keel. The force on a preventered-out mainsail, on the contrary, acts behind the axis of the keel, and can broach you, as it tries to push its own center of effort around ahead of the keel.

Like Bash, I dislike Genoas and dislike large overlapping headsails. High clewed yankees have a better shape when reefed, and a better shape when let out without a pole downwind. They let some wind escape at deck level, but that's not where the good wind is anyway. Like any headsail, they do not tolerate being sailed by the lee, however, so you can't sail exactly DDW unless you are a VERY good helmsman.
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Old 09-10-2012, 13:27   #244
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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+1

Every boat I've ever sailed was very stable downwind with jib alone. I can hardly imagine how it could be otherwise -- the center of effort of the sail is far ahead of the keel. The force on a preventered-out mainsail, on the contrary, acts behind the axis of the keel, and can broach you, as it tries to push its own center of effort around ahead of the keel.

Like Bash, I dislike Genoas and dislike large overlapping headsails. High clewed yankees have a better shape when reefed, and a better shape when let out without a pole downwind. They let some wind escape at deck level, but that's not where the good wind is anyway. Like any headsail, they do not tolerate being sailed by the lee, however, so you can't sail exactly DDW unless you are a VERY good helmsman.
very true in coastal waters where there is no ground swell,once you get into open ocean however without a pole when sailing nearly downwind your sail will constantly collapse or try to gybe.

a lot of the indian ocean and south pacific routes you are sailing during winter in the tropics,where you have an opposing prevailing sw ground swell,whilst having wind and wind blown waves from the ese,
with out a bit of mainsail up or a poled out genoa/jib flown by the lee,any yacht will roll its guts out!

execept possibly catamarans!,
this combination of wave and swell is also very tough on auto pilots and windvanes
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Old 09-10-2012, 13:42   #245
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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very true in coastal waters where there is no ground swell,once you get into open ocean however without a pole when sailing nearly downwind your sail will constantly collapse or try to gybe.

a lot of the indian ocean and south pacific routes you are sailing during winter in the tropics,where you have an opposing prevailing sw ground swell,whilst having wind and wind blown waves from the ese,
with out a bit of mainsail up or a poled out genoa/jib flown by the lee,any yacht will roll its guts out!

execept possibly catamarans!,
this combination of wave and swell is also very tough on auto pilots and windvanes
Indeed, and true even in coastal waters with a swell and light winds.

But the stiffer the wind, the better the headsail alone works and the less problematic the swell is. My boat sails fantastically well in a whole gale downwind with headsail alone -- the stronger the wind is, the more you can roll in the headsail and the less inclined it is to flop around.
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Old 09-10-2012, 13:56   #246
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Indeed, and true even in coastal waters with a swell and light winds.

But the stiffer the wind, the better the headsail alone works and the less problematic the swell is. My boat sails fantastically well in a whole gale downwind with headsail alone -- the stronger the wind is, the more you can roll in the headsail and the less inclined it is to flop around.
modern fin keelers do get a lot moe stability as the speed increases,from the aquadynamic keel and easier to achieve hull speeds.

however traditional full keel yachts benifit greatly stability wise with some main sail to provide a counter balance to wave action.

having lots of small bits of sail up,ie poled out jib,partially rolled in genoa and deep reefed main,make a great "working sail combination" for long distance downwind sailing,providing great stability,ease of reefing,and great balance for the helmsman or auto pilot
.
with this rig,correctly balanced,a yacht should effectively self steer with minimal correction from the helmsman.
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Old 09-10-2012, 13:59   #247
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
+1

Every boat I've ever sailed was very stable downwind with jib alone. I can hardly imagine how it could be otherwise -- the center of effort of the sail is far ahead of the keel. The force on a preventered-out mainsail, on the contrary, acts behind the axis of the keel, and can broach you, as it tries to push its own center of effort around ahead of the keel.

Like Bash, I dislike Genoas and dislike large overlapping headsails. High clewed yankees have a better shape when reefed, and a better shape when let out without a pole downwind. They let some wind escape at deck level, but that's not where the good wind is anyway. Like any headsail, they do not tolerate being sailed by the lee, however, so you can't sail exactly DDW unless you are a VERY good helmsman.
My boat has swept-back spreaders, and does better jybing downwind than DDW, which is a point of sail I hate anyway -- hot and boring.
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:05   #248
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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My boat has swept-back spreaders, and does better jybing downwind than DDW, which is a point of sail I hate anyway -- hot and boring.
on a 2500 mile downwind passage you will end up sailing 25% further using that technique!or 25 days on a 20 day passage!

nothing wrong with that,but crossing an ocean with multiple island stops i know where i would rather spend those extra days!
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:08   #249
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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My boat has swept-back spreaders, and does better jybing downwind than DDW, which is a point of sail I hate anyway -- hot and boring.

I enjoy DDW, and my boat performs quite well there, because it's a ketch. Having the main a bit further forward means I can do DDW either wing in wing under main and genoa, or under main and spinnaker,obviously leaving the mizzen down. Boat just wants to track straight DDW under this rig, and it's fast. It can seem slow and hot, because theres almost no apparent wind until wind speed picks up to well above boat speed, but the boat actually will do hull speed quite easily this way. That's why I love a ketch, more flexibilty when balancing the boat. Points great and reaches like a scalded cat with the mizzen up, tracks straight and goes fast downwind with the mizzen down.
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:19   #250
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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My boat has swept-back spreaders, and does better jybing downwind than DDW, which is a point of sail I hate anyway -- hot and boring.
as a little exercise in downwind sailing try using a poled out jib to counter balance the mainsail,with this rig your apparent wind changes and you can sail with the main pulled in off the spreaders to within 15 degrees of dead downwind .
again using the pole, sailing by the lea,you will be able to carry the poled out jib to nearly an appparent wind on the beam.

sailing downwind isnt nessacarily about spinnakers and being boring!
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:22   #251
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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on a 2500 mile downwind passage you will end up sailing 25% further using that technique!or 25 days on a 20 day passage!

nothing wrong with that,but crossing an ocean with multiple island stops i know where i would rather spend those extra days!

It's very unlikely that I will ever sail downwind for 2500 miles. But in addition, someone with the same model boat as mine won PHRF Boat of the Year using that strategy. It's not all that slow, and with the swept back spreaders, sailing downwind with mainsail and headsail isn't all that efficient.

The boat has done 7 knots going downwind like that. I'm not distressed by it.
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:25   #252
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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It's very unlikely that I will ever sail downwind for 2500 miles. But in addition, someone with the same model boat as mine won PHRF Boat of the Year using that strategy. It's not all that slow, and with the swept back spreaders, sailing downwind with mainsail and headsail isn't all that efficient.

The boat has done 7 knots going downwind like that. I'm not distressed by it.
for ease of sailing on day passages this is probably a good strategy,just remember to still use a preventer
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:26   #253
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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as a little exercise in downwind sailing try using a poled out jib to counter balance the mainsail,with this rig your apparent wind changes and you can sail with the main pulled in off the spreaders to within 15 degrees of dead downwind .
again using the pole, sailing by the lea,you will be able to carry the poled out jib to nearly an appparent wind on the beam.

sailing downwind isnt nessacarily about spinnakers and being boring!

Well, I don't have a pole (making it an expensive test), and as I won't be doing extended ocean cruising on this boat it's not a big concern. This is not a bluewater boat. I started sailing when I was 61 - 62. I'm 66 now. I have no business sailing 2500 miles on open waters, and it's a realistic expectation that by the time I have that kind of experience, my sailing may be over. Hell, my saiiling could end at any time. Every day is a gift.

Do I wish I'd started sooner? Not really, because what sailing there is there where I lived, near St. Louis MO, is lake sailing and not all that great. It is what it is, and I make the best of what it is.
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:26   #254
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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for ease of sailing on day passages this is probably a good strategy,just remember to still use a preventer

Yeah -- I think I'm gonna put a big red sticker on the boom that says "Newt!"
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:28   #255
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Re: sailboats can injure and kill

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Yeah -- I think I'm gonna put a big red sticker on the boom that says "Newt!"
+1 i hope he is feeling better
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