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Old 03-05-2011, 01:47   #46
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
I'd also be interested in how sure you are about this story. There isn't anything else about it on the net. Do you know for a fact that it was a collision between two boats? I'll be down in a week and will have to get the low down from the guys at Budget.

All the supposition is hilarious. It will be funny to see what actually happened.
90% certain they had a head on collision while sailing... no one on watch...... As for exact details ... not too sure.
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Old 03-05-2011, 01:48   #47
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

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Why would insurance not pay? I thought insurance still covered "Stupid" People accidently burn down their home deep frying turkeys and the ins co still pays.

Would they really have both sunk if they werre mono's? I ve seen monos bounce off of stuff with minimal damage.
Insurance does not cover negligence......
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Old 03-05-2011, 01:58   #48
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

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G'Day Hummer,

Well, here's what I bet was going on: Each of these boats had the same cruising guide. In the guide were some waypoints for this particular passage. Each skipper programmed his chart plotter and auto pilot to follow the route between said WPs, one going thisaway, one going thataway... and dang if those pesky chartplotters didn't do a... errrr... bangup job of following said route. End of story is another example of satellite aided collision. Not all that uncommon, unfortunately, but not often reported so well.

Cheers,

Jim
That is an excellent thought, one that had never occurred to me before; and a strong caution against leaving the boat running on autopilot. Thanks.
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:25   #49
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

We saw this boat at St Martin in March, so it happened a while ago.
When we asked what happened no one seemed to know what had happened or at least no one was talking who knew.
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:36   #50
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

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Insurance does not cover negligence......
Insurance does cover negligence, otherwise we wouldn't be covered in single vehicle (car) accidents. Insurance does not cover illegal activities. If an insurance company can prove you were not operating legally, good luck with getting a pay out. Colregs puts the onus on both boats to avoid each other in a close quarters situation. I hope never to put it to the test. Just think, if it were cars on the motorway there would many dead bodies. This was only a cat fight!

Greg
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:53   #51
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

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Originally Posted by SaucySailoress View Post
That is an excellent thought, one that had never occurred to me before; and a strong caution against leaving the boat running on autopilot. Thanks.
G'Day SS,

To me it isn't a warning to not use one's autopilot, or even to not link it to a route, but to be a bit thoughtful about the waypoints that one choses.

In fact, I have only done this (followed a route by GPS/Autopilot link) once, and that under some duress entering a cyclone anchorage in pitchy dark. Worked well in that situation. But, when organizing routine routes, I carefully avoid using any published ones that I am aware of. Two reasons: one is to avoid, if possible, situations like this one, the other is that one needs to check each such WP oneself to assure that it isn't corrupt in some way (typo, changed channel, simply wrong data, etc). If you have to plot each one anyway, it's much easier just to do it from scratch IMO than to laboriously copy the L/L from some book or whatever.

And of course, not having someone on watch when a crew is on board is simply stupid.

And finally, the one similar collision that I am familiar with was between monos: a Swan 65 and a Downeast 38 (between Papeete and Riatea (sp?) some years ago. Neither sank, both had damage.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:31   #52
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

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That is an excellent thought, one that had never occurred to me before; and a strong caution against leaving the boat running on autopilot. Thanks.

This is a major problem in the Bahamas. Almost everybody uses the Explorer charts and waypoints. You really have to be careful at night as even the Bahamian boats use these waypoints and some of them are less than fully equipped with navigation lights. At sailboat speeds it's usually not an issue if you just look around every few minutes.

The other thing you can't do is depend on a safety zone from radar. Small fiberglass boats do not show up well on radar and boats with wooden masts are even worse if neither is carrying a radar reflector. Power boats seem to be worse than sailboats since the metal in the rigging usually provides some return from the sailboats. I've been in fog and had 25 foot power boats not show up on radar until they were less than 100 yards away. I heard them long before I got a radar return. A safety zone may work well when the target is a large steel freighter, but a bit more iffy when a small fiberglass or wooden boat is involved. Especially one that is traveling 30 knots and not paying attention.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:33   #53
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

Yup. Jim... That's exactly what I meant, but I was too lazy with my words. I might have been better saying "a strong caution against leaving the boat running on autopilot for prolonged periods of time whilst on commonly used routes."....
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:58   #54
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

You should aways consider a waypoint to be a referance point. I always moved my sailboat from place to place based on the conditions of the wind and sea state. Even when I entered a waypoint into the GPS, it didn't mean the world would end if I didn't hit the waypoint spot-on. The exception is when entering a safe refuge near obstacles of concern.

In jest I asked a group, at happy hour, if two or more boats where on a converging route to a waypoint, who had the right of way?
They actually spent several minutes arguing for a proper answer, until I told them that the Colregs apply. First boat to cross the waypoint has no bearing on the matter.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:58   #55
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

Although I didn't see the boat, one of the yard workers in Port Townsend told me about a new Lagoon 500 that came off a ship in Victoria. The new owner was bringing her into Puget Sound and set a waypoint for the yellow VTS buoy off Pt Wilson. He must have gone below or something, but good old Otto was spot on and put the starboard bow right on that buoy. Split the hull back to the second bulkhead and darn near lost her. Never, ever, use the exact coordinates for a published waypoint. At least give it a bit of distance. Not to mention the fact that he wasn't keeping an active watch in such a busy place as Admiralty Inlet....

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Old 03-05-2011, 08:59   #56
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Saucy, I read the French rag Multihulls World regularly and they use that fandangled word "whilst" about 50 times per issue. I always thought it was some faulty automatic french to english translation program but there you go doing it. Assuming that your biological internal french to english program is functioning properly I have come to the only logical conclusion that whilst is a real word. I am going to try it out tonight at the bar here in Montana. If I say, "scuse me, Mr. Lumberjack will you move your gigantic hulk out of my way whilst I go to the bathroom" do you think I will get my ass kicked? BOB
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:03   #57
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

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To me it isn't a warning to not use one's autopilot, or even to not link it to a route, but to be a bit thoughtful about the waypoints that one choses.
I learned early on--don't ask me how--not to use a beacon's actual coordinates as a waypoint.
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:12   #58
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

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Insurance does not cover negligence......
My insurance distinctly says negligence is not covered. Maybe you should go look at yours too... Anyways I know for sure the insurance companies on both boats declined to pay. I imagine it willg o to court... but the repair guys working on the Catana told me that.
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:17   #59
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

GPS accuracy is so good now that boats on autopilot can run right into buoys. The fact that these boats ran into each other in broad daylight in a busy location is simply astounding. Is hard to believe that no one was on deck in this well traversed area. Being anywhere around a fleet of rental boats makes me very nervous, although I have noted plenty of owners who obviously had no knowledge of even the basics and less common sense. All the more reason to make sure YOU are on lookout.
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:22   #60
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Re: Pictures of Crashed Catana in St. Martin.

The Explorer Chart waypoints typically don't coincide with the exact coordinates of a physical marker such as a bouy, but mark the end on known routes with sufficient depths to be safe even at night. Dodging coral heads in the shallow waters of the Bahamas can be challenging in the daytime if the surface is rough and the sun angles low. The tradeoff is of course that these routes are used in both directions and by vessels with drastically different cruising speeds. I think most people are aware of the collision danger created and keep a close watch, but there's always an idiot or two around when they're least needed.
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