Options for Non-Mass-Produced Boats

[sailorboy1]

So for the anti Hunter people (because I stirred a pot); what do you like about your boat that is better than a Hunter (or any similar "production" boat if you so chose)? Name the boat model and how much you are willing to pay for it! Why is it going to be a better boat to sail and live aboard (ie cruise).

Never thought I would be defending Hunter!

wonder if the items in the above get mentioned beyound say the 6th reply

[nautical62]

I currently own a Hunter 30 and a Beneteau 32.2 (spent 3 months on the Hunter in the Bahamas this past winter, just finished 2 weeks on the Beneteau in the BVIs)

Pluses of Beneteau:

Fridge instead of ice box.
More space to get past each other inside
I prefer the salon table design
Mine came with anchor windlass
Holding tank
More space and better seats in cockpit
can rotate wheel out of the way.
Came with propane stove, propane electronic shut off, etc.
V-birth not so high up and larger
Head more private and larger.
Came with better, more accessible through hull fittings.
Life lines detach easily for walk out at dock
Nicer ergonomics overall.
Wind hatches in both V-birth and solon.
I feel it was produced with the end use more in mind - add ons, etc.

Pluses of Hunter:

Much, much cheaper
sails better
Shallower draft
simpler to know and trouble shoot systems.
Much, much cheaper.....

[Curmudgeon]

Well, if I were buying a boat today it would be a Southerly, probably the 110. I can't afford a Morris.

I couldn't begin to describe why a Morris or a Southerly is superior to a Hunter.

[sailorboy1]

well try, and how much does it cost?

[Curmudgeon]

The Morris? If you have to ask, you can't afford one.

This one probably runs over a million: Morris 45 | Morris Yachts

The Southerly 110 is about 250K at current exchange rates. Why is it better than a Hunter of comparable size?
Swing keel, draws 2.5 feet with the keel up, beachable.
Stronger hull
Stronger rig (tall rig option with a self tending jib and asym on a furler)
Points to 30 degrees apparent or close to it with the keel down (draws over 7 ft)
Better righting moment
Twin rudders (Rob Humphries design).

This boat will outsail a Hunter, will go into thin water where no Hunter will go, and is much better built-- and doesn't cost alot more, with the caveat that it will cost 10K extra to ship to the US unless you sail it over yourself.

Although the 110 has a nice aft cabin with a double, the compromise is a smaller salon (the swing keel has to go somewhere).

Here is a relatively unbiased review. Southerly 101 - SailNet Community

Of course, it's not hard to find boats better than a Hunter.

[Waterborn]

Don, natical62 is your best bet here because he/she owns both. Remember, almost ALL of the criticisms about modern production boats come from people who have never set foot on one, let alone owned one.
I looked at Bennies and Hunters, and chose a Benny. I liked the interior design better, the lines better, and I did have a feeling that the Benny was better built. However, my boat was nearly twice as much as a Hunter of similar age, size and supplied equipment, so it wasn't an easy decision. I don't read on a daily basis of these boats sinking all over the world. (and remember, these are production boats which means there are a lot of them too.) I believe that these criticisms about these lower cost boats are coming from people who spent a lot more and want their desicion justified.
If you can live with a Hunter and all the people looking down their nose at you, then happy sailing to you. You can always use the money you saved to buy a Jaguar and be a snob to people who chose to drive a lower cost, lower quality car than you.

[eyschulman]

The quality production and limited production boats will be more $ than the hunter-catalina and high volume french boats- what you pay for is a combination of factors including low volume for both builder and sales personel-more advertiseing cost per unit- That said you also should get a better finished product that may not be designed for universal boat show pizzas(critical for high volume boats).There may also be more personalization available-many expensive boats will sail better and some have good resale due to brandname reputation and above average quality throughout.For some people there is also the pride of ownership issue(like german big three cars)- the difference in price can be up to four times a hunter or more. I personally weight my choice of boats heavely toward performance and am willing to pay 2x for a J boat,C&C,Tarten, Saber I am not willing to pay 4X for a Morris,Hinkly or the likes.

[shadow]

I got this list from another forum which is pretty accurate within a few degrees, hope this helps:

Monohulls
Able 32, 42, 48 * USA Superb quality, expensive. Chuck Paine designs.
Alajuela 33 * USA Good value, well built
Alberg 35 * USA Early f /g boats. Well proven, not expensive.Narrow, short waterlines, graceful overhangs.
Alden 38, 43, 44, 46, 48, 54, 58 USA Classy, well built, beautiful & expensive.
Allied 30, 32, 33, 35, 36, 39, 42 * USA Good value. Functional, practical.
Amel 36 53 AMEL - Chantiers Amel FRA Strong, well designed. Excellent passagemaker, great value. Low maintenance.
Amazon 29, 37, 44 * CAN Steel boats, attractive modern designs.
Amphitrite 43 * FRA Waquiez built, strong & roomy with good storage.Odd deck design, but great boat and good
value.
Annie 28 * USA Every boat built by Morris is a work of art!
Bayfield 29, 30 32, 40 * CAN Good value. A bit “plasticy” interiors but ok.
Bluewater 60 * USA Modern, top quality Chuck Paine design.
Bowman 36 58 * ENG Strong boats. Excellent passagemakers.
Brewer 42 * CAN Improved version of Whitby 42.
Bristol 27 45 * USA Good boats. Later models were better quality.
Bristol Channel Cutter 28 USA Well built, not my personal choice. Good company.
Cabot 36 * CAN Ted Brewer design
Cal 2 30, 34, 36, 39, 40, 2 46, 3 46, 48 * USA Bill Lapworth designs. Many 2-46’s have circumnavigated.
Comfortable, reasonably priced but look very carefully at bulkhead attachment.
Caliber 28, 33, 35, 38, 40 Caliber Yachts Official Home Page USA Fairly well built. Michael McCreary designs.
The 47 is not an attractive boat.
Cambria 40, 44, 46 * USA Fast, well built, gorgeous and expensive.
Camper Nicholson 31, 32, 35, 38, 39, 40, 43, 47, 56, 58, 70 * ENG Out of business except for shipbuilding.
Watch for serious blister problems on all models.
Cabo Rico 34, 36, 38, 40, 42, 45, 47, Cabo Rico Custom Yachts,Inc.-Cabo Rico Sailboats,Cambria Sailboats,Northeast Mototsailers,Chase Power Boats CRI Crelock and Paine designs. Expensive, semi custom.
Cape Dory all models * USA All models are well designed & built.
Cape George Cutters 31, 36, 38 USA Some owner completed. Strong & fast. Sometimes great value.
Cascade 36, 42 USA 1965-67 design still being built. Narrow. Many owner-finished.
Centurion by Wauquiez (not Beneteau) 36-59 FRA Centurion’s built before Wauquiez sold to Beneteau are solid,
but w/limited tankage. Later Beneteau-built models are not appropriate or impressive
except for dockside living.
Cherubini 44, 48, 62 * USA Semi custom boats. Beautiful, great sailing& expensive
Contessa 26 & 32 * CAN, ENG Tania Aebi & B.J. Caldwell both circumnavigated in 26's.
Contest 31, 35, 36, 38, 40, 41, 42, 44, 46, 48, 55, 60 contestyacts.com HOL More common in Europe.
Well built, new boats are very attractive.
Countess 44 by Pearson * USA Ancient John Alden design.
Corbin 39 * CAN Roomy and strong, but watch for hull blisters.
Crealock 31, PH 32, 34, 37, 40, 44 by Pacific Seacraft * USA Good value and well built. Graceful overhangs,
canoe sterns, short waterlines means these boats may hobbyhorse upwind.
CSY 37, 44 * USA Sturdy, roomy & reasonably priced but old.
Dana 24 by Pacific Seacraft USA An solid and expensive (for the size) slow pocket ocean cruiser.
Deerfoot Yachts * Var Fast & innovative, aluminum & fiberglass hulls.
Dickerson 36, 37, 40, 41, 50 * USA Nicely proportioned & well built boats. Earlier 36’s are very reasonably priced.
Durbeck 46 * USA Big and roomy, long overhangs, short waterline.
Endurance 35, 38, 40 * Var Peter Ibold design, some owner completed. Built by various yards in ENG,
USA & Canada.
Esprit 37 by Nordic * USA Perry design. Comfortable, well proven, good value.
F & C 44 * ARG Modem Frers designed cruising ketch.
Farr Pilot House 50, 56, 60, 63 Shipman Yachts - Skagen Motor Yachts - DK Yachts - Solent Spear - Boat Sales International - Hamble Southampton UK SWE Sexy, powerful, fast and glamorous.
Excellent quality.First boats were built by Najad.
Fast Passage 39 USA Some built in Canada, some by Tollycraft. WA. Excellent boat.
Fisher 30 46 ENG Sturdy and slow motorsailers. Great for high latitude cruising.
Flicka 20 USA Solidly built Mini ocean cruiser, but slow, slow, slow.
Francis 26 * USA Beautiful design from Morris, an excellent yard.
Fraser 41, 46, 50 * CAN Good modem cruisers.
Freya 39 * USA Good value. Many owner-completed, so quality varies. FAST, full-keel design capable of 200 mpd!
Garcia 46-50+ FRA Gorgeous, fast, semi custom, high quality aluminum.
Gladiateur 33 * FRA Very sturdy, short on tankage, Waquiez built.
Goderich 35, 37,41 * CAN Attractive Brewer steel boats. Short production run.
Gozzard 31, 36, 44 CAN Good design & construction. Totally committed quality company.
Hallberg-Rassy, 31,312,33,35,352,36,38,382,39,41,42,42F,43,45,46,4 9,53,62www.hallberg-rassy.com SWE
Well built, comfortable, with good tankage & storage. Newer Frers designs have better
sailing performance than earlier Enderlien boats. Excellent resale value. Excellent
systems integration and detail.
Halmatic 30 * ENG Similar to Nicholson 31. Watch for blisters.
Hinkley 30-64 USA Attractive, highest quality, and expensive. Hold theirvalue well. Modest tankage & storage.
Hood 38 * FRA Waquiez built, Hood design. Strong, fast, & attractive. Short on tankage.
Centerboard rattles downwind. Solid choice.
Hylas 46,49, 54, 54 Raised Saloon TAI Frers & S & S designs. Good sailing qualities, tankage & storage. High
quality on later Jachney-era models.
Island Packet 32, 35, 350, 37,38, 40, 420, 44, 45 Island Packet Yachts USA Roomy & comfortable with good tankage
& storage but some odd features. Continually improving. Good value, exc. company.
J-Boats/32, J/42; J/44, J/46, J/160 J/Boats: Better Sailboats for People Who Love Sailing. Cruising-Racing-One-Design Sailboats. Try J Sailing Gear, Sailing Clothing, Sailing Calendar, Caps, Vests, Jackets, T-Shirts, Books USA Fast, light. Excellent sailing performance. Minimal
tankage and storage. Fast downwind, pound heavily upwind. Ck keels!
Jason 35 from Miller Marine * USA Some owner completed. Several have cruised extensively.
Jongert 50, 55, 60, 67, 73 HOL Heavy, expensive, extremely well built steel and aluminum yachts. Not going
to win any races, though!
Justine 36 * USA Gorgeous Paine design, Morris built cruiser.
Kaiulani 34, 38 * USA Lovely steel Brewer & Yohe designs. Very limited production.
Kanter 42, 45, 60, 65 Kanter Yachts Flash Launcher CAN Steel & aluminum boats, semi custom. Highest Quality.
Chuck Paine & Ted Brewer designs.
LM 27, 28, 290, 30, 315, 32, 380 DEN Some have inside steering. Well built and impressive.
Linda 28 * USA Gorgeous design, Morris quality.
Leigh 30 * USA Very well built, attractive Morris.
Little Harbor 42-90 TAI & USA Ted Hood designed, heavy displacement. Semi custom. Expensive and solid as
a rock.
Luders 33, DOVE * USA Older, well built by Allied.
Malo 36, 38, 39, 45 Malö Yachts SWE Quality offshore boats with good sailing performance.
Attractive, reasonably priced. Strong company, good service.
Mariah 31 * USA At least one circumnavigation. Pacific Seacraft built.
Mason 33, 43, 44, 53, 54, 63 * TAI Some of the very best Taiwan built boats.
Mercator 30 * USA Inexpensive, obscure. One has circumnavigated
Moody 38, 42 , 47, 54, 64 www.moody.co.uk * ENG Good designs but some quality-control issues.
Morgan 382, 383 * USA Excellent Ted Brewer design for around $60K.
Morris 26, 28, 30, 32, 34,36, 42, 44, 45, 454, 46, 48.6, 52 Morris Yachts | Among the world's finest boat builders USA Chuck Paine design.
Superb quality, highest quality US yard building cruising boats. Expensive. Semi-custom.
Mystic 57, 60 * ENG Dubois design, Bowman built, beautiful.
Najad 330, 361, 370, 390, 420, 490, 520 Welcome to Najad Yachts, Builders of Sailing Yachts in Sweden SWE Quality, attractive boats. Excellent sailing
performance. Good tankage, storage and high level of craftsmanship.
Nauti Cat Motorsailers 35,40,43, 53, Nauticat Yachts Oy FIN Later S & S designed models are much better
performers than earlier tubby models.
Niagara 31, 35, 42 * CAN Well built & roomy. Superb value.
Nordic 34,40,44,45 * USA Attractive boats, some solvable problems with mast step deflection on the 40 & 45.
Norseman 400,447 * TAI Strong, fast, and attractive. Have held their value well.
North Wind 43,50, 58 jawod@northwind.es SPA S&S designs, quality construction, good company.
Ocean 60, 71 * ENG Powerful boats, many have had blister problems
Ocean Cruising 42 * USA Only a few built by Hank Hinkley. Classy.
Orion 27 * USA Offshore capable. Pacific Seacraft built.
Oyster 42, 45, 485,49,53, 55, 56 61, 62, 63, 66, 70, 82, 100 Oyster Marine | Luxury Yachts | Home ENG NZL Some have
inside steering. Attractive, expensive and first class! Weak resale value and larger
models make this an excellent, though expensive choice.
Pacific Seacraft 34, 37, 40, 44 * USA Well built boats, good resale. Graceful overhangs.
Pearson 35, 365, 422, 424, 520 * USA Fairly well built, not flashy but reasonably priced.
Passport 41, 415, 435, 44, 456, 470, 50 PASSPORT YACHTS ANNAPOLIS TAI Modem Perry cruising design. Good
storage/tankage.
Pretorien 35 * FRA Strong, fast & attractive. Built by Waquiez. Best value for a boat under $85,000.
Modest tankage.
Rhodes Bounty II * USA Ancient Pearson fiberglass design, classic but very old, so will need tons of upgrading.
Is it worth it?
Regina of Vindo, 38, 43, 49 Deck saloon yachts in the range 35, 38, 40, 43 and 49 feet, Regina af Vindö Yachts (Sweden) SWE Attractive, well built, quality deck saloon. In a class of
their own for quality and design.
Rival 36 41 * ENG Strong, good-looking and sailing boats.
Rustler 36, 42 ENG Totally impressive, quality boat and company.
Sabre 34, 362,38, 402, 42, 402, 425, 452, Luxury Yachts hand crafted in Maine; Motor yachts and sailboats by Sabre. USA Built in Maine, great quality, but limited
tankage and storage.
Sadler 34 * ENG Unsinkable, fast, great performance. Good choice.
Saga 35, 43, 48 Welcome to SAGA! * CAN Modern Perry design. Fast innovate and narrow. The 43 is a
very tried and proven design.
Santa Cruz 52 USA Strong, fast and fun!
Saturna 33 * CAN Attractive, Bill Garden designed pilothouse cutter.
Scanmar 35 * SWE Limited production but good design.
Sceptre 41, 43 CAN Modem pilothouse with good performance.
Seawind 30, Seawind II 32’ * USA Excellent boats. Good value. First. Built by Allied Yachts
Seguin 44, 51 USA S & S design. Excellent boats. Semi Custom.
Shannon 32, 36, 39, 43,43 II, 47, 53. Welcome to Shannon Saiboatsl and Powerboats USA Good reliable boats. Hold their value well.
Skye 51 * TAI Similar in appearance to Swans. Deck problems.
Southern Cross 28, 31, 35, 39 * USA Good boats. Attractive designs. Fairly well built.
Spencer 35, 42, 44, 54 * CAN Older, solid boats, built in Vancouver, B.C.
Stellar 52 TAI Total quality S&S design, well built, great detail work.
Sundeer 56, 64 * USA Excellent & expensive. Innovative design & incredible performance. Good systems layout.
Built by TPI.
Swan FIN Newest designs aren’t well suited for ocean cruising.
Shearwater 39, 45 RSA Strong, traditional and attractive.
Sweden Yachts www.swedenyachts.se SWE Expensive & well built. Racer cruiser designs, short on tankage
and storage.
Tartan 3500, 37, 3700, 41, 4100, 4600, Tartan Yachts Model Downloads * USA Well proven several 37’s have
circumnavigated. Some designs have centerboards.
Taswell 43, 49, 56, 58, 60, 72 We're Sorry this Page is No Longer Available - 404 YachtWorld.com TAI Quality, attractive, good sailing performance.
Excellent tankage, storage and design.
Tashiba 31, 36, 40 * TAI Perry designs. From the best yard in Taiwan.
Topper Hermanson 40+ * USA Semi custom steel or aluminum Van de Stadt designs.
Trintella HOL Roomy and well built. Newer designs are aluminum and exp.
Triton 29 by Pearson * USA Good value, sturdy. Earliest F/g production boat.
Valiant 32, 37, 39, 40, 42, 47, 50 www.sailnet.com/valiant USA Major blister problems on Valiant 40 hull numbers
116 250. No problems with any of the excellent Texas built boats. Proven designs, strong
company.
Vancouver 27 * CAN Also built in Taiwan & England.
Vangard 32 * USA Good value. Phil Rhodes design, built by Pearson
Vega 27, by Albin Marine * SWE At least six have circumnavigated. Inexpensive, fast.
Victoria 30, 34 ENG Chuck Paine design, Morris built.
Vindo 29, 34, 38, 39 SWE Attractive, well built, but high maintenance.
Vineyard Vixen 30, 34 * USA Attractive design.
Westerly 26 36 ENG Not flashy, but fairly well built boats.
Westsail 28, 32, 39, 42, 43 * USA Sturdy boats. 39’s are rare & attractive. Perry design.
Whitby 42, 44 CAN Brewer designs that sell for $85 120k. Good value. Roomy and fairly well built.
Windship USA Expensive custom boats.
Yankee 26, 30 * USA S & S designed. Inexpensive and capable. Great value.

KEY:
* Out of business
ARG Argentina
AUS Australia
CAN Canada
CRI Costa Rica
DEN Denmark
ENG England
FIN Finland
FRA France
GER Germany
HOL Holland
NZL New Zealand
RSA South Africa
SCT Scotland
SWE Sweden
SPA Spain
TAI Taiwan
Var Various

[shadow]

Sorry MODS, I didn't think the list was that HUGE!!! I hope I didn't break any forum rules.... My apologies if I did..
cheers

[Bash]

Originally Posted by shadow

Sorry MODS, I didn't think the list was that HUGE!!! I hope I didn't break any forum rules.... My apologies if I did..
cheers

this list comes around quite often. It includes virtually monohull ever made except Beneteau, Catalina, Hunter and Juneau. The point here being that anyone who buys an affordable production boat is clearly second rate.

Why is the OP stirring this pot? To reinforce boat snobbery? The OP has started three threads this week: "Cruising on $5000 /Month"; "Sudden Attraction to Hunters"; and now "Anti Hunter Options." And the original post in this thread includes the instruction: "Name the boat model and how much you are willing to pay for it!"

It seems a bit crass, this fixation on the relationship between boat price and status. I should certainly hope that Cruiser's Forum has better issues with which to deal.

[Sabbatical II]

To All Hunter Owners

Your welcome to raft up next me anytime and I'll gladly listen to what you like about your boat. I'm not sure what Don's agenda is here and why he feels the need to bag you out. I'd rather we all tried to preserve the goodwill to all that makes this such a fabulous forum.

Greg

[swagman]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

So for the anti Hunter people (because I stirred a pot); what do you like about your boat that is better than a Hunter (or any similar "production" boat if you so chose)? Name the boat model and how much you are willing to pay for it! Why is it going to be a better boat to sail and live aboard (ie cruise).

Never thought I would be defending Hunter!

wonder if the items in the above get mentioned beyound say the 6th reply

You are clearly not defending Hunters Don, just stirring it yet one more time.

In your other thread you stated you were thinking of buying one, but deliberately encouraging Hunter bashing like this is not doing the brand any good. It will only help spread the discussion on build quality for some models, the lack of sailing ability on other models, and confuse everyone so it ends up with few long distance cruisers picking one for a voyage.

It cannot help existing Hunter owners if that stirred pot reduces resales values - or if you aim to buy one - maybe thats your intention?

Chill Don - as the others have said - there is more to life than this kind of stuff. Just go buy the boat and get out sailing.

JOHN

[MarkJ]

Don its begining to get tedious because you are just insulting some people.

Isn't there some rule of sailing etiquite about slagging off the boat someone owns.

And the responses by those that think they have a better boat are as shallow as a puddle on a footpath in summer.

Your threads might start ending up where I shove the teenage fame threads....

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Bash

this list comes around quite often. It includes virtually monohull ever made except Beneteau, Catalina, Hunter and Juneau. The point here being that anyone who buys an affordable production boat is clearly second rate.

Why is the OP stirring this pot? To reinforce boat snobbery? The OP has started three threads this week: "Cruising on $5000 /Month"; "Sudden Attraction to Hunters"; and now "Anti Hunter Options." And the original post in this thread includes the instruction: "Name the boat model and how much you are willing to pay for it!"

It seems a bit crass, this fixation on the relationship between boat price and status. I should certainly hope that Cruiser's Forum has better issues with which to deal.

Bash, that's not really fair to say. This is a cut and paste from John Neal's site: Mahina Expedition - Offshore Cruising Instruction

These are boat he feels are good "offshore" candidates, something he does a lot of consulting on. And there are plenty on the list that are affordable, e.g. Bayfield, Alberg, Cal, Pearson Triton, Albin Vega, PS Flicka, Spencer, Westsail, etc. etc.

And sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with Don's threads. I've enjoyed them.

[sailorboy1]

Keep in mind I have never owned or been on a Hunter. I just wonder if Hunter bashing is more a sport than anything else.

All I'm trying to determine is the turth instead of baseless statements that say something. I let this forum a few years ago convince me most production boats were crap. Now that I have more experience I'm willing to question some of my beliefs, maybe some open mindness by others is in order.

So I want to hear what makes your boat better! And if it is true (and it well could be) how much does it cost. If you want to bash a Hunter or such and then say that your replacement is going to cost 2 times the price; all I can say I sure hope the boat is better since you are spending so much.

Isn't this a little like someone buying a Lexus and then saying it has a 5 Star crash rating as justification? ....But then most cars have 5 Star crash ratings.

If you are aganist Hunter or other production boats due to status or bragging rights that's OK, just admit it!

And we never got even CLOSE to 6 replies that answered the items in the orginal questiion before turning into a new general bash!