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Old 24-08-2013, 07:54   #16
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

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Originally Posted by Bill_R View Post
Ha! Sounds a bit like my first experience in my 17' O'Day with a crotchety old Johnson circa 1960.

After you get used to the boat with the outboard, and get it rigged spend a lot of time practicing sailing in close quarters and docking under sail. Always good to not have to rely on the outboard.

I have an O'day 22 now that we routinely sail down a canal and back to the dock. I imagine the Catalina 22 would be just as easy to handle in close quarters under sail.

Once again I'm going to disagree a bit, and I think it's because I was a beginning sailor much more recently than most here. I remember just how tricky all these things were to learn.

Don't go from using your outboard motor to dock to sailing to the dock. That isn't the first part about sailing for you to learn. There's a whole lot of knowledge that actually goes into docking under sail. It's much more important that you learn to tack; learn to jybe safely; learn the points of sail; observe and realize what the differnt levels and directions of wind mean for your boat; learn to judge how far you've traveled, how fast you're going; where you should all sit -- on a 22' boat it will make a big difference sometimes.

Learn the basics. EVENTUALLY you can learn to dock under sail. It will be easier on your size boat but harder if you have a hank-on jib instead of a roller furler.

You don't need to learn to dock under sail for quite some time. Having paddles is a good idea but will be tough going, esp. if there's only one of you paddling, but you should have them. My club's 16.5' boats are a tough paddle. Yours will be harder.

Get SAILING FOR DUMMIES. It's packed with useful information and I coped with difficulties well more than once from reading that book.

For you to sail into the dock you have to know how to tack *very well.* You have to know how to gybe *very well.* You have to be very familiar with how your boat sails on one sail. Typically sailors use the headsail, but it's on a roller furler and they can put out a small amount. You can't do that with a hank-on sail. You might do better with a reefed main, but do you know how to reef your sail? Do you know how to depower your mainsail?

Do you know how to steer while doing all of this?

There's a lot to learn, and a LOT of finesse, which only comes from experience, required to dock your boat under sail.
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Old 24-08-2013, 08:04   #17
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames

RedHerring did you read his post? He knows he doesn't know how to sail and they were just testing the boat without sails up and the engine. I think that was a smart thing to do, and in fact I'm going to recommend it to beginners.

If you don't know what to do with the sails yet and you find yourself in a pickle, you'll have to get the sails down safely and securely while struggling with other problems, and dealing with sails isn't something you're familiar with.

I think learning how to handle the boat with the motor first so it can be a TRUE emergency back up is a brilliant plan for a complete beginner.
Bad advice. A true emergency backup sits on your shoulders as the op showed.
You don't see outboards on lasers.
Learning to sail without an engine will really teach you how to sail instead of how to occasionally turn off the motor.
You might ding up the boat a bit at first, but I believe the op bought it for such a purpose.
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Old 24-08-2013, 08:12   #18
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You can easily do both with a sculling oar. Especially on a small boat.
And if there's two of you get two sculling oars. Requires a bit of practice but its striking how easy you get even a 35 footer moving...
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Old 24-08-2013, 08:30   #19
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

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Bad advice. A true emergency backup sits on your shoulders as the op showed.
You don't see outboards on lasers.
Learning to sail without an engine will really teach you how to sail instead of how to occasionally turn off the motor.
You might ding up the boat a bit at first, but I believe the op bought it for such a purpose.

He didn't buy a laser. He bought a 22' sailboat.

I can see saying "I disagree with you," but calling it "bad advice" is unnecessarily harsh.

It was EXCELLENT advice. Learn to use the motor so it's a real option when you need it. Won't take long at all.

Then learn to sail. I really wish I had done that, and I'm the first to turn my engine off and last to turn it on. It's there if I need it, though, and I have on occasion.

And, I see no see no need to have this new sailor bumping his way through a marina. Frankly, I don't want him bumping into mine. I want him to be able to maneuver his boat safely and efficiently.

Master the motor, and then learn to sail. Little by little you learn how to handle things, but still in a pinch the first thing I do is turn on the motor, and there are others who have said the same thing here. I leave it in neutral, but it's then ready to go fast if I need it to. I don't have to worry about whether the engine will start -- I've already settled that.

I think if he's bought a boat he intends to learn to sail her. I have no doubt that he will do that.
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Old 24-08-2013, 08:34   #20
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Actually sculling is a great thing to learn as a beginner. It ain't hard. The inflatable world is missing out in this relaxing excercise. You steer while sculling no need for rudder. Getting complicated seems like the first choice. This is simple effective and cheap. Not for heavy weather use though.
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Old 24-08-2013, 09:00   #21
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

Most of the advice so far on this thread is (IMO) neither good advice or bad advice; it's just differing advice.
There are many ways of learning to sail on a small(ish) boat, with motors, without them, with oars, without them. Heck, on a calm day, you could probably jump over the side and tow a 22' by swimming with a rope between your teeth.

What we have so far is a few different viewpoints on the best way to learn.

I applaud the OP for his willingness to jump in and have a go. Already he is learning what doesn't work , he will be soon learning what does works.

The only advice I offer at this stage is to read everything you can (on CF or elsewhere), discard what doesn't feel right for you, then try more stuff.

Sometimes you will realize that what you discarded was actually good and sometimes vice versa.

Enjoy (and don't internet advice too seriously - even mine )
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Old 24-08-2013, 09:07   #22
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
---
Sculling will always require two people. ---
I totally disagree with that statement. I've never even seen one person sculling while another steers. Raku, have you ever actually tried sculling?
For anybody interested you might Google "yuloh".
In the Bahamas at some regattas they have instituted sculling races as a way of reigniting interest in the old Bahamian fishermen's way of getting around in engineless craft.
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Old 24-08-2013, 09:11   #23
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
He didn't buy a laser. He bought a 22' sailboat.

I can see saying "I disagree with you," but calling it "bad advice" is unnecessarily harsh.

It was EXCELLENT advice. Learn to use the motor so it's a real option when you need it. Won't take long at all.

Then learn to sail. I really wish I had done that, and I'm the first to turn my engine off and last to turn it on. It's there if I need it, though, and I have on occasion.

And, I see no see no need to have this new sailor bumping his way through a marina. Frankly, I don't want him bumping into mine. I want him to be able to maneuver his boat safely and efficiently.

Master the motor, and then learn to sail. Little by little you learn how to handle things, but still in a pinch the first thing I do is turn on the motor, and there are others who have said the same thing here. I leave it in neutral, but it's then ready to go fast if I need it to. I don't have to worry about whether the engine will start -- I've already settled that.

I think if he's bought a boat he intends to learn to sail her. I have no doubt that he will do that.
Raku, once again you seem to have made the logic jump between something that worked for you, in your situation and in your boat and believing that it is "excellent advice" for someone else.

I have no doubt that learning to motor around would have worked for you. But the OP is operating on a small lake and with a private dock in front of his own house. Not too much can go seriously wrong in such a benign environment, and getting the rig on and sails on asap seems like a good step in his learning curve.

Sure, a totally reliable outboard is nice, but from personal experience with a Catalina 22 (my second boat and first non-dinghy) and a series of trash motors, sailing or paddling into a dock is not too challenging. Meanwhile, it sounds like all that is wrong is either obstruction or a dead impeller, neither of which is a major obstacle to returning to running condition. A new outboard is likely to cost more than he paid for the whole boat...

Anyhow, OP, you sound like you are on the right track. I would suggest that you get the rig and sails on and start experimenting. With the flexible attitude that you have shown so far the curve will be steep, progress fast and the satisfaction great. Don't let the worry warts slow you down!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 24-08-2013, 09:25   #24
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

ErBrown,

Sounds like you had your first adventure with your boat, and have a clue about dealing with the problems, too. A comment about lake sailing: expect flukey winds, and wind to drop out, leaving you without its propulsion.

I believe the statement that one cannot scull the sailboat was made by someone who has never practiced the skill. I have seen some boats moved that way, the Pardeys discuss it in one of their books, but am a lousy sculler, myself. It definitely can be done by one person, and in a boat of 30 ft. in length, against a current.

I suggest that you take paddles with you on your next adventure, or tie the jetski astern, for emergency propulsion, until you've got the o/b running, but get out there and enjoy, eh?

Have "too much fun".

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Old 24-08-2013, 10:01   #25
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What is a jet ski? No way you can tie your boat to a jet and ski at the same time. I have not tried this but pretty sure it won't work.
Get that mast up.
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Old 24-08-2013, 10:08   #26
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

Check that the engine is spitting water out the back, if not (likely if unused for a while) try clearing out the little tube that the water exits out of.... you can use a picee of wire etc...
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Old 24-08-2013, 11:07   #27
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

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Actually sculling is a great thing to learn as a beginner. It ain't hard. The inflatable world is missing out in this relaxing excercise. You steer while sculling no need for rudder. Getting complicated seems like the first choice. This is simple effective and cheap. Not for heavy weather use though.

But soooo many other things he should be focusing on first. If you can tack and jybe well, well you may not end up in an emergency situation to begin with.

I have a friend who thinks she knows how to sail but cannot tack or jybe. Long story there how it happened, but that's the result. As a result she has run aground many times trying to return in the club boats, because if you miss the turn into the channel, there's big bumps on the bottom on both sides. And when the wind is from the north, you have to tack in. She can't do it and won't learn.

Anyone can sail on a broad reach. Being able to tack and jybe quickly and well, puls knowing the waters you're in, will probably prevent an awful lot of calamities. As for one of thos bumps near the channel mouth, I privately call it "Carolyn's island" because she's run aground there so many times after failing to tack the boat.

There are fifty million things you can learn about sailing, and this man is at step 1. I stand by my suggestion that he take an hour and get familiar with how to use the outboard motor. Just messing around, moving backwatds and forwards, using a buoy or something to practice steering the boat accurately under power. Each boat is different. My boat had tremendous prop wash and it really took some getting used to. In addition, the rudder could turn 360 and when turned 180 performed quite poorly.

I would have been so much better off to break some of this stuff down into steps and to make "mastering the basics of the motor" step 1, because I certainly wasn't going to turn into the dock under sail at step 2.

We teach sailing the boat to the dock in our 5 week class. I know how useful it is. But it's not the second thing we teach, and it's not the second thing for this man.

And it won't work in rough water, but he just blew his headsail out and the boat won't point up without the headsail, paddling any distance is going to be exhausting. In addition, there are only two people on the boat, and no they're going to have to STEER using a paddle.

A sailboat is not a power boat. It is also not a canoe, but a sailboat with a good outboard motor will get you safely back to the dock without hitting any other boats.

I bet my boat has been hit five times while at the club T-dock, and I'm not there with my boat all that often -- by new sailors sailing in or out of the slip. (I know -- you were not talking about sailing into the slip.)
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Old 24-08-2013, 11:19   #28
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

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Raku, once again you seem to have made the logic jump between something that worked for you, in your situation and in your boat and believing that it is "excellent advice" for someone else.

I have no doubt that learning to motor around would have worked for you. But the OP is operating on a small lake and with a private dock in front of his own house. Not too much can go seriously wrong in such a benign environment, and getting the rig on and sails on asap seems like a good step in his learning curve.

Sure, a totally reliable outboard is nice, but from personal experience with a Catalina 22 (my second boat and first non-dinghy) and a series of trash motors, sailing or paddling into a dock is not too challenging. Meanwhile, it sounds like all that is wrong is either obstruction or a dead impeller, neither of which is a major obstacle to returning to running condition. A new outboard is likely to cost more than he paid for the whole boat...

Anyhow, OP, you sound like you are on the right track. I would suggest that you get the rig and sails on and start experimenting. With the flexible attitude that you have shown so far the curve will be steep, progress fast and the satisfaction great. Don't let the worry warts slow you down!

Cheers,

Jim
+1

Raku,

My intention was not to hurt anyone"s feelings, but as Jim took the time to point out the OP is on a lake with a private dock at least one other boat, and jetski. Chances are he knows how to drive a boat. The fact that you missed that information makes your advice suspect at best. I sometimes lack tact, but calling an apple an apple should not hurt anyone's feelings.
I identify with the OP since I bought a Oday 22 to learn to sail on mountain lakes. It did not come with an outboard, and fortunately I was advised against putting on by a retired captain. When you have an engine you use it. Winds coming directly from your destination? Turn the engine on. Winds light and flukey? Turn the engine on. Winds getting too strong? Turn the engine on. etc. Obviously when the engine doesn't work you won't have the skills to deal with this.
But the real advantage learning to sail without an engine is that it teaches you to sail well. When the winds are extremely light you learn not to give up ground. The frustration of light winds teaches you planning, discipline in holding a heading, trimming sails, even human ballast placement. It teaches even more on less tangible aspects of sailing the big picture of terrain effects on the wind, a feeling for the weather that the hum of an engine masks.
Conversely it can teach emergency actions. On a more benign setting such as a lake that is a real boon.
I still sail with the friend that bought my Oday. One of the first things he did was to replace the trolling motor I had put on it to be able to take my kids swimming on totally dead calm days with an outboard. When I am on his boat I am mate not skipper. Because he did not learn sans motor he does not know his boat nearly as well as I do. His heading wanders, etc.
A quick story.
After a summer of very light wind there was a hurricane headed up the coast a few hundred miles distant. The winds on my lake were forecast to be strong. I was ecstatic, but could not find anyone to go sailing with me so I made my first solo sail and with too strong of winds.
At the beginning with the boat overpowered (but not knowing it) I was having a blast. As you get out into a broad part of the lake there is a mountain that funnels the wind down a strip of the lake. I realized this on that day. Before I got to that part I realized I was overpowered by the gusts that kept almost knocking me down, but being solo the first time I had no idea how to reef the sails with no one to steer. My jury rigged tiller rope would not hold against the force being applied. By this time I reached the funneled winds. Blowing out the turnbuckles on the upper shrouds upper shrouds inspired me to put the boat in irons. DOH! Wish I had thought of that before! I was able to drop the sails before the mast snapped, but now I was in a real pickle. I could not put up reefed sails for fear of snapping the mast, and had a lee shore with riprap about 3/4 of a mile distant. I tried to use the trolling motor I had installed to get across this part of the lake and into a lee shore, but it was not up to the task. Trying everything I eventually fetched up about 6 feet from that riprap on a little walmart special anchor. At no time was I in severe danger being on a lake with flotation device, but my boat was in danger from the riprap not to mention from my enthusiasm.
I eventually appealed to a motor boater to tow me over to that lee shore where I camped out having a great evening, and learned the next morning how to jury rig shrouds.
The lessons I learned from that day are way too many to list here.
By contrast I was with my friend on my old boat now his on the same part of the lake when we got hammered with 40+ non forecast winds. We were sailing on the double reefed main alone and doing fine, but of course he got nervous the boat wouldn't handle it and turned on the engine ducking in to that same lee shore. The boat was in no danger this time. I was able to point out to him his poor handling was putting us closer to a lee shore, and he did correct it. But I don't think even that lesson stuck because in the end all he need do was start the engine. Had it not started he would of been fine because I was on board and been there done that. etc.
Whew sorry about the long post.
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Old 24-08-2013, 11:25   #29
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

Ha! Just imagine if that were a half-million dollar boat heading for shore out of control.
All's well that ends well. Give you good stories to tell.
Although I will admit my last trip my family told me 'this time, can we have less of an adventure'!
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Old 24-08-2013, 11:29   #30
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Re: Not Exactly what I had in Mind

Well said, Jeanathon!

To me, the dependence on motors, is a little like the dependence on chartplotters. It's like people with cars not learning to read maps because of depending on their automotive GPS navigators. The less skills one develops and the more reliance of gadgets, the less able one is to handle "developing situations."
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