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Old 19-10-2011, 18:26   #16
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Re: Marine Truth

Marine Truth........hmmmmmmm........you tell people the truth if they choose to ignore it...it's on them.

Case in point.

Person owns boat.....Gets "advice" from dock people about smoky exhaust

Has relative come down to adjust valves.......still smokes

Has a "friend" come down who has a boat just like it to "fiddle around"

Calls mechanic....mechanic gets history that boat has not moved in two seasons except for brief runs.....no appreciable warm up.

Mechanic learns that engine has been run at dock to charge batteries.

Engine smokes....valves were out of adjustment

Valves adjusted.....

One cylinder is found to be not firing....injectors were pulled and cleaned

Engine still smokes slighly.....one valve was a little tight. adjusted.

Took boat for seatrial....no smoke under load......until throttle was pushed to the max.....THS achieved at 3/4 throttle.

Advice given to customer was to RUN THE BOAT.....

Customer chose to bring another mechanic in who claimed that "compression was a couple hundred low"

The frikkin engine wouldn't run "a couple hundred low"

So the person ends up paying for two mechanics for three plus days and machining head and replacing valves.......while doing nothing to the rings or cylinder bores.

Oh well....................
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Old 19-10-2011, 18:39   #17
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Re: Marine Truth

I'm something of an expert on this subject ...

A lot of people sell themselves and a lot of people are buying. The poor quality of the product is rarely reflected in the packaging so I'm on the side of those that get a lot of opinions. Like Chief Engineer says, a mechanic can come along and give you bad advice, right on the heels of one who gives you good advice. I also try to remember that the advice I want to hear isn't necessarily the advice I need.
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Old 19-10-2011, 20:16   #18
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Re: Marine Truth

I usually just ask questions until someone gives me the answer I was looking for

The problem with most things boats, is there is never one single 'truth' in almost every situation or product. What works for one person might not work for another. what lasts forever on one boat might only last a month on another... Do the best research you can manage, then take a chance on making your own decisions based on what you feel is the best option for your particular needs. Chances are, you'll be fine

If I went around trying to find absolute truth in everything I wanted to buy, repair, upgrade, or DO, I'd be one miserably disappointed individual. And I probably would never go sailing...
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Old 20-10-2011, 01:38   #19
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Re: Marine Truth

Quote:
I usually just ask questions until someone gives me the answer I was looking for
That is also part of the problem with no offense to CMCrazy ;-)

Part of it is how we personally are approaching the need of information. Is it simply to confirm what we have already decided (rightly or wrongly)? Lets be honest, how many of us have bought something, then afterwards kept re-checking prices...? If need is genuine to help make a decision, then resources like this can help narrow down the choices.

It is an inherent trait of humans to provide assistance to others, I guess it is the result of our being social creatures. There have been many examples of people who have gone to extraordinary lengths to assist others, and not only in emergency situations. If someone has the courage to ask for assistance here, and the need is discerned to be genuine, if we know something about the subject, we all try to help.

From the years of lurking I have here, when someone has a problem and is not certain of the next steps, I have observed there is normally a large palette of suggestions on how to do it another way, and consequently saving the person a whole bunch of boat units (sometimes not, 'cause if it's broke, it's broke).

There is the age old saying how you cannot fool everyone all the time. This is where I believe that forums such as CF play a large role in sorting out the truth from hearsay/rumour etc. Many here have vast experience and knowledge, however does this in itself qualify them to give opinions on all matters? Not necessarily, as perhaps their experience is confined to sailing in certain regions, or under certain conditions. They can make assumptions based on their personal experiences, however this may not be appropriate in another situation. I might know the waters of SE Tasmania, but I know nothing about sailing through the Great Sandy Strait up in Queensland, where apparently everyone runs aground...

I would submit that in a forum such as CF, you would actually generate fairly neutral information (after sorting the fluff and obvious bias). How many times have we read where a 'professional' mechanic suggests repowering, while they have a vested interest in selling a new engine to someone, unless you trust the individual implicitly. Another viewpoint could be could be that the 'professional' simply doesn't know, doesn't want/or can't say they do not know, and thus start guessing.

Everyone is responsible for performing their own due dilligence. I personally research using as many sources as practically possible, because in the end, if I am the owner, the responsibilty rests on me.

I hope some of this makes sense.

Just my 2c...YMMY

Bloke
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Old 20-10-2011, 04:48   #20
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Re: Marine Truth

In very few things there a single truth to be found. Mathematics may be one, but is a creation of the human culture, no a "real" thing.
So, I take everything else as an opinion reflecting a person experience and goals.
Asking sailing questions in the net is like asking in a bar what's the best drink.
The most innocent looking question can bring opposite, resolute answers.
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Old 20-10-2011, 12:15   #21
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Re: Marine Truth

Never listen to the salesman.

If you do, make sure the item is returnable and refundable.

Do your homework, find what you need, find what the just price is, then go get it.

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Old 20-10-2011, 12:19   #22
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Re: Marine Truth

If the saleman really is good at their job, and not just a "salesman" looking to get you to buy something, then it is probably in your interest to listen to them!
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Old 21-10-2011, 07:35   #23
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Re: Marine Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
If the saleman really is good at their job, and not just a "salesman" looking to get you to buy something, then it is probably in your interest to listen to them!
Right. Just bloody hard to tell them apart unless you have the a/m knowledge resulting from your own research.

;-)
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Old 21-10-2011, 08:26   #24
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Re: Marine Truth

Perhaps it's just me but, by-and-large, I have found that many of the issues that I am not acquainted with--such as electrics--that I have asked questions about have elicited very useful information on the forum.

GordMay's considerable research skill's have dug up references I couldn't have hoped to have found and, on one occasion, helped me get a reasonably complicated windlass installation handled; Chief Engineer's knowledge of mechanic's has been extremely helpful in my dealing with engine problems; Bill Trayfors (Sp?) knowledge of HF Radio has helped me get that sorted out on our boat; Richard Kollmann's knowledge of refrigeration helped me get that sorted out; Peg Hall's wisdom regarding waste systems has helped me there; and, Jeff Till's knowledge of Panda Generators has helped me there. All of the foregoing I have contacted via the forum and many subsequently via PM or email and no one has ever charged me a dime for their help/instruction. (And to all of them/you, please accept my thanks!)

While I can, and sometimes do, concede to paying knowledgeable professionals to handle matters, in fact, if at all possible, I prefer to do the work myself simply because I want to know how to handle issues should anything come up when I am somewhere that I cannot easily ask for assistance or advice. In that effort, the forum has been very helpful to my education. (And, so that I don't forget hard won knowledge, since we bought our first boat we have always compiled a "Boat Book" with descriptions and diagrams and photographs of how "stuff" was done and how equipment works or was repaired along with model ans serial numbers, invoices et al, for future reference.)

To the extent that I can, I have offered my own experience but sometimes it makes sense to keep one's own counsel. As to the question of why someone without knowledge or experience might offer advise on matters, I have no clue. Frankly, tho' I think its pretty easy to tell who knows what they are talking about and who is just expressing an un- or ill-informed opinion.

FWIW...
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Old 21-10-2011, 09:21   #25
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Re: Marine Truth

It amounts to the credibility of the source. If there is the ability to investigate the sources credibility and it is found that they have a high degree of credibility then you have a greater chance of finding the truth. If it is not possible to investigate the sources credibility then it is more random as to whether or not you are receiving the truth.

Averaging what various sources state is a flawed way of getting at the truth. Credibility and not an average is what counts.
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Old 21-10-2011, 09:43   #26
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Re: Marine Truth

Yep. I've seen things like commercial vendors cutting in and telling posters they (posters) don't know ...

Sort of like the car manufacturer telling the test driver the car is good only the driver does not know how to drive it. Embarrassing.

From my observation here there is a large group of cruising people who are very, very well versed in marine matters.

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Old 21-10-2011, 09:50   #27
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I look at forums as brainstorming sessions

I toss out my expereince. Though factual, it is often different from other's.

I toss out my annalysis--often posted on my blog at length--for the reader to consider and reject if they don't like my math.

I ask questions, looking for ideas, but not generally accepting what I get as fact. More likely, it's just a lead I will explore. But often a lead is invaluable, when you've become stumped or stuck. Sometimes an idea will break a stuborn tie.

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What surprises me most are those that have not done basic reading (books tend to be acurate because of the publishing process, though there is still opinion) or internet research, and then post a poor question ("I'm new to sailing--what anchor is best?"). They have no shame. I'm not opposed to simple questions, but with all of the search capabilities we have now....

On the other hand, the dumb open-ended questions generate a lot more clicks than tightly worded and specific questions. They keep forums alive.
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Old 21-10-2011, 09:56   #28
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Re: Marine Truth

Ultimately, it comes down to experience. We take as much information as we can, formulate an opinion based on that information and act on it. Over time, I've developed a **** detector.
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Old 21-10-2011, 16:46   #29
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Re: Marine Truth

First "advice" to be questioned and tossed is any absolute; "it is a slow, fat barge", "all of them have bad stringers", "you will just be throwing your money away on an old design that never worked right", "you have to drill out the middle and then re-tap it".
The second "advice" to be tossed is that issued by people with only one point of view, I typically see this from those who absolutely believe every sailor wants to own and race the fastest boat on water or brown slick stuff.
The third "advice" I toss out is from the stupid spewing inane and wondrous exclamations about anything, "the only way to clean your fuel tank is to use XXX". These claims tend to be about technique and products - probably most from dealers.

I search out and review a lot of sites to confirm any claim about any thing. A technique to try is using google images to see if there are any interesting pics or images of what you are interested in.
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Old 21-10-2011, 17:33   #30
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Re: Marine Truth

Talking before listening. My major fault when giving advice.

Apparently, most salesmen suffer from the same.

Advice from others? Unsolicited, not welcome. Even then, most precious at times.

It is a form of complacency, isn't it, that just when we think we already know is exactly when we are most likely to err.

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