Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-06-2012, 12:43   #46
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag
all rope will guarantee a good and entertaining evening for the other anchorers in a cove as you start to speed away at wind speed from the safety of the anchorage into oblivion. this month there were 4 walkabouts due to rope rode. have a good sail --figger out where to stash your chain so you have it to anchor with. you WILL need it.
On a 27' boat, deep anchorages, and muddy bottoms? Not worth it on my view
__________________

__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2012, 14:44   #47
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

these walkabouts were anchored in 25 ft with sand and rocks and some lil bit of mud. thy used rope and chain and the rope rode chafed thru. there are some 25-29 ft boats anchored in same anchorage with 300 ft of chain on board. they generally use 120-150 ft here for anchoring--we have seas and wind sans protection. they value their boats and those boats do not walkabout. the only walkabouts we have had were chain with rope rode.
if 25 ft is deep anchorage, then i am confuzed.....
__________________

zeehag is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2012, 15:48   #48
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
these walkabouts were anchored in 25 ft with sand and rocks and some lil bit of mud. thy used rope and chain and the rope rode chafed thru. there are some 25-29 ft boats anchored in same anchorage with 300 ft of chain on board. they generally use 120-150 ft here for anchoring--we have seas and wind sans protection. they value their boats and those boats do not walkabout. the only walkabouts we have had were chain with rope rode.
if 25 ft is deep anchorage, then i am confuzed.....
Sorry, I mean around here the anchorages can be deep so that having 300' of rode is good. 300' of chain on a 27' boat will have a huge effect on trim and sailing ability, especially in light winds. With mud bottoms, there's seldom an issue with chafe, except at the bow roller, and we don't have any swell or even waves in our anchorages, usually.

I like all chain, and I especially like that your boat doesn't wander around so much in light to no wind (typical issue here), but on a 27' boat sailing in the PNW, I would choose to have about 30-60' of chain and the rest rope rode.
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2012, 19:01   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Alberg 30
Posts: 344
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

Quote:
Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
This is the first time I heard/read of that rule. I think it makes a lot of sense. I have an 80# Maxwell Supreme on my 40' Silerton. Before the Maxwell, I used an 88# Delta so I could sleep at night; I didn't!

Foggy
Am I understanding this rule correctly, that I should have a 60-90lb Rocna on my Alberg 30?

Seems awfully big, not sure how I'd even lift the damn thing.
I have a CQR 35 and a Rocna 33 at the moment.
__________________
jgbrown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2012, 19:25   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,359
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

I dont know whose rule that is but it's BS. Most go about 1 size over the recommendation.... except in a Bruce 2 sizes.... a 35 is very common for a 30 foot boat.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2012, 20:44   #51
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,827
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Isn't the dock in Ganges free for short stays? Then you can get the heck out of dodge and anchor in Glenthorne Passage overnight.

I've been reading this thread thinking,
"What's the matter with a sail over to Annette Inlet?"
__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2012, 21:34   #52
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,913
Images: 1
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
these walkabouts were anchored in 25 ft with sand and rocks and some lil bit of mud. thy used rope and chain and the rope rode chafed thru. there are some 25-29 ft boats anchored in same anchorage with 300 ft of chain on board. they generally use 120-150 ft here for anchoring--we have seas and wind sans protection. they value their boats and those boats do not walkabout. the only walkabouts we have had were chain with rope rode.
if 25 ft is deep anchorage, then i am confuzed.....
Did they have snubbers and chafe protection? Or did the chafe occur on the bottom, which would be strange if no coral around.
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2012, 21:42   #53
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

1. Don't listen to anchor manufacturer's recommendations. They are competing against each other and they need to sell. Sell, baby, sell! They are aiming at the daysail market (which is a bigger market than the caribbean cruising market which is bigger than the long range cruising market). They prefer to sell more smaller anchors than less bigger ones. Simple bottom line motivation.

2. Don't listen to other cruisers who will tell you, in good faith, about what works for them in their cruising grounds. Your cruising grounds and bottom conditions are probably quite different. Pay attention to that difference.

3. Don't pay attention to me, because I am full of **** as well.

4. Ok, but you can pay attention to the maths nerd / engineer - that's me! If you do the mathematics, it is obvious that the best system will be a good modern anchor with chain and then with rode. That is the best system to minimise your weight and maximise your holding ability. 1 + 2 = 3. You can't argue against maths, but I am not going to go into the detail here. Look around on the web or just accept it, even though I might very well be full of ****.

However, the real world is a little different to formula. So ignore the nerd and the maths! Some posters mention chafe and others think they are talking about the chain-rode connection chafe. No, they are talking about chafe of the rode around rocks or coral.

In areas with plenty of sand and mud, and no rocks or coral, the maths is fine. Use the maths, and a chain-rode. We used to have 25 m of chain and then 100 m of rode in the Caribbean. Worked fine in 99% of cases.

Now we are in the Pacific, so we throw the mathematics out the window and consider reality. We cannot have our rode wrapping around a coral bombie. So now we have 40 m of chain and then 100 m of rode. We should probably have a bit more chain, intuition and experience not maths tells me this, so we pay attention to what is going on, I dive on the chain/rode, observe, unravel it when necessary, etc.

In your cruising grounds, I would have a Manson/Rocna 2 or 3 times oversize, a length of appropriate chain equal to 4 - 6 times the maximum anchoring depth and then another 100 m of rode. Do the sums and see if it is actually more weight than you have now.

We are in a cat with a 0.9 m draft with the board ups, so we tend to go in close and get away from the crowd and then throw out a minimum of 7:1. That used to mean 2 m of depth and 14 m of chain. We can't do that now because of the bottom profile in the Pacific. In our previous steel mono, we would either run up on the beach with a stern anchor and a tree line or anchor behind the crowd with a minimum of 7:1. But that is just us. Don't pay attention to us or the crowd. By your own admission, your local cruisers are all anchoring with a scope of 3:1 in a crowded anchorage subject to squalls. Why would you listen to idiots like that?? Cruisers the world over are just like them - humans beings with their normal biases and beliefs and crazy theories.

Experiment! Don't listen to any of us on CF, work it out yourself through trial and error and common sense. Good luck!
__________________
Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2012, 07:12   #54
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

avb--with rocky bottom you do need chain--all chain--that walkabout boat has disappeared at present--did too many walkabouts and now is gone. was finally allowed to meet the beach.
when the bottom has rocks or coral or anything to chafe rope, must use chain rode. mexico has rocky shoreline. those who use rope on the ground lose rode and anchor. my chain has lost galvo on the bits that were on the ground. there are also rocks around which the rode wraps--cannot guarantee anywhere with rocky shores to maintain a rope rode successfully.
last night was typical of nights here in these waters--we had sudden gusts to 40 kts. always be ready for this kind of activity. it happens.
zeehag is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2012, 08:07   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

I had a Big Bruce anchor that came with the boat, Very heavy one,
I used all chain with it,
I was in crystal clear water most of the time I was parked and I could see the Bruce on the bottom clearly.
I backed up hard and set it properly, The tide would change and the Bruce would roll over on its side and then was useless as it would not set again,
It would slide along the bottom and not reset. I might as well not even had it on the end of the chain,
It wont be going back on my boat,
5 to 10 feet of water, and at least 50 feet of chain, Plenty of room, 100 feet of chain goes out,
__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2012, 08:38   #56
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,594
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

And I don't like leaving my boat in good conditions, much less in a blow... And NOW I know why?? I would never had left her alone... Yes, your karma saved your boat despite your best efforts..haha
__________________
Randy

Cape Dory 25D Seraph
rtbates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2012, 08:50   #57
Registered User
 
ReMetau's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Marathon, FL
Boat: Hans Christian 33
Posts: 648
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I had a Big Bruce anchor that came with the boat, Very heavy one,
I used all chain with it,
I was in crystal clear water most of the time I was parked and I could see the Bruce on the bottom clearly.
I backed up hard and set it properly, The tide would change and the Bruce would roll over on its side and then was useless as it would not set again,
It would slide along the bottom and not reset. I might as well not even had it on the end of the chain,
It wont be going back on my boat,
5 to 10 feet of water, and at least 50 feet of chain, Plenty of room, 100 feet of chain goes out,
We lived off and on at anchor for 2 years in the Florida Keys and Bahamas. I only ever once dragged my 60 lb Bruce on all chain and it was because I didn't let out enough scope during the 4th of July fireworks off the beach.
__________________
Don & Diana
s/v ReMetau - a Hans Christian 33
http://www.remetau.com
ReMetau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2012, 02:20   #58
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,939
Images: 1
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

Common sense (and mathematics) tell us that the best investment, weightwise, is a heavier anchor. So better to go with a lighter chain (albeit high tensile) and a heavy anchor.

On a 27 foot boat you are limited in the amount of weight you can carry up front. Go with maybe 75% chain and 25% rope. 8:1 is probably the maximum amount of rode, unless you are talking about tropical storms or the like.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2012, 09:54   #59
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,359
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I had a Big Bruce anchor that came with the boat, Very heavy one,
I used all chain with it,
I was in crystal clear water most of the time I was parked and I could see the Bruce on the bottom clearly.
I backed up hard and set it properly, The tide would change and the Bruce would roll over on its side and then was useless as it would not set again,
It would slide along the bottom and not reset. I might as well not even had it on the end of the chain,
It wont be going back on my boat,
5 to 10 feet of water, and at least 50 feet of chain, Plenty of room, 100 feet of chain goes out,
Yes, the Bruce has reset issues for sure. But many anchors do. CQR, Delta, Bruce, Danforth all dont reset well. The CQR maybe a little better than the rest... probably due to the knuckle in the shank. What the world needs is an anchor designed not to show max numbers in a sraight line pull, but that resets automatically. I would take that anchor even if it had less holding power. Hopefully some of the "new breed" can do that better.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2012, 10:31   #60
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Lesson Learned: When a Squall Comes Into an Anchorage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Yes, the Bruce has reset issues for sure. But many anchors do. CQR, Delta, Bruce, Danforth all dont reset well. The CQR maybe a little better than the rest... probably due to the knuckle in the shank. What the world needs is an anchor designed not to show max numbers in a sraight line pull, but that resets automatically. I would take that anchor even if it had less holding power. Hopefully some of the "new breed" can do that better.

Wow. You've got me thinking here. I have a Bruce that dragged repeatedly during a recent squall. I dragged a total of ... 500 feet! I concluded that the anchor was too small for the boat. It was a very strong squall, but I need my anchor to hold through a squall.

So I did some research and basically came up with a "1 lb./foot" recommendation from several sailors I respect. One does salvage and has a 35 lb. I can buy.

But the thing is, the Bruce *did* reset. Repeatedly (I was on the boat as it dragged). It just didn't hold after it reset. It didn't hold the first time I set it once the storm hit, although it seemed like a good setting at the time I anchored. I moved the boat backward after dropping the hook by running the engine slowly in reverse, three times, several minutes apart. It seemed solid until that squall.

That was quite a squall. There were no sails up, and yet my boat spun around the anchor -- twice. It was like being in Dorothy's house in the tornado. The chain is in two sections -- a 20' section, a swivel, and then a 10' section. The anchor actually didn't drag at that point.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.