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Old 10-10-2012, 08:22   #166
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

I can tell you that the labor up this way, at a yard in my area, is $107@hr., US. I also know their workers are paid under $20 and not as knowledgeable as workers were 10 years ago when I was there. I am assuming part of the problem is hefty Insurance premiums and fees paid for environmental agency's. They have to jump through a lot of hoops now with toxic paints.
The other bummer is the DIY yards are stopping people from doing there own work. They say it's about liability and environmental but it probably also has some to do with making more money. I think long term they will shoot themselves in the foot by pricing people out of their beloved lifestyle. At least thats the way I see it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:44   #167
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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What is boatyard labor in Europe? It has to be comparable doesn't it? In the US it's $125-200 an hour. I think the difference is that in the US the actual employee is lucky to be making $15 or 16/hr. So we probably get less value for what we pay.

Where have you seen rates this high? I know electricians and sytems guys who charge up towards $150, but not a single boatyard that bills at that rate. And we live in the same place. In our yard we bill less than $100/hr for labor, and most of us who have been there for some time make $25-$35/hr. We do have a couple of clean-up boys who make $15.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:55   #168
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

@Celestial Sailor

It is a current phenomena (blocking DIY) in Holland too. Particular the big marina' s are practising this, reason that I avoid them like plague.
There are sufficient small, cosy marina' s with sufficient facilities that are cheaper and very happy to accommodate people like me and my humble boat.

Economy is sinking deep overhere, many bankruptcies and businesses going down the drain. I have a special arrangment with the manager of the marina where my boat is at present. He' ll get first refusal of my business in exchange of half of the discount he gets. So far it works quite good.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:14   #169
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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Where have you seen rates this high? I know electricians and sytems guys who charge up towards $150, but not a single boatyard that bills at that rate. And we live in the same place. In our yard we bill less than $100/hr for labor, and most of us who have been there for some time make $25-$35/hr. We do have a couple of clean-up boys who make $15.
I stand corrected then. Last time I paid a yard to do anything was in L.A. and CSR in Des Moines before that. My memory might be off
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:55   #170
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

boatyards in kali have extremely high labor rates. in mexico the labor rate is anywhere from 20-100 dollars hourly, depending on number of gringos using services. cheaper rates apply to mexicans and friends of mexican workers. i pay 20 dollars hourly and my worker is a boatwright who is burned out on society and is a wonderful fabricator and worker. much good stuff been done this summer..is awesome.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:18   #171
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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boatyards in kali have extremely high labor rates. in mexico the labor rate is anywhere from 20-100 dollars hourly, depending on number of gringos using services. cheaper rates apply to mexicans and friends of mexican workers. i pay 20 dollars hourly and my worker is a boatwright who is burned out on society and is a wonderful fabricator and worker. much good stuff been done this summer..is awesome.

Got some pics?
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:47   #172
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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I can often be fastidious about things from time to time but there's just something different about the boat. The boat pushes my obsessiveness to new heights, very odd and I'm not sure why.
Yes, it is odd -- I don't have this tendency with any other material possession: our car is lucky if it gets washed twice a year, and the oil changed within months of the little 'I need an oil change' light going on.

But the boat: in some modes I will think nothing of replacing a perfectly good jib sheet just so that it matches the one on the other side.

Anyways, the pre-departure phase is especially annoying for me. Because the boat is a hypothetical, and I have little idea of what will actually turn out to be important. It's very annoying to make decisions, they tend to all boil down to spending an incremental sum of money to improve the boat some unknown amount for a circumstance that may never happen.

I really like the later stage -- of having sailed the boat halfway around the world, and now actually knowing it, and being able to add all these little small luxuries that improve life aboard in a measurable way. Prioritizing then is so easy.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:19   #173
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

minaret--i dont have pix yet of the things we did--i still need to replace the beam to which the mizzen is stepped, as itisnt keel nor deck stepped, and beam is inneed of replacement--i can do that same time i remove fridge remnants, sometime within about 2 yrs--making lil stuffies to improve comfort and convenience on board--will take pix when i have the pinrails and pins so i can show off mexican hardwood--with the mounts for my nav lights, this boat is looking slightly different than when i left san diego.....new mast boots of a rubberized kind of sunbrella, and ..heck i even cleaned and oiled my rail!!!! 100 ft of the 120 feet of it..
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:35   #174
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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Should't these numbers be decreasing rather than increasing!? It looks like $800 in deferred maintenance in 2010 cost you 7 grand the next year
Not at all. The numbers (see my previous post) are not purely maintenance, but refit - the ongoing manitenance is a relatively small percentage of the ongoing cost. The costs are largely taken up by relatively big ticket upgrades - installing roller furling, for example, or buidling and installing a fridge and freezer - these are not maintenance cost, because there was previously no roller furler and no fridge.

As a matter of principle, I try to avoid deferring maintenance. When it comes to the boat, a stitch in time saves nine, and all that.

The increase in annual costs over the last year is largely due to a couple of big ticket itesm - specifically a new mainsail and a new genoa. In fact we could have cruised with the rag we had, but we plan at least 1 more serious multi-day offshore race, and you don't bring a knife to a gunfight (or "bunfight", in our case).
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:25   #175
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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In fact we could have cruised with the rag we had, but we plan at least 1 more serious multi-day offshore race, and you don't bring a knife to a gunfight (or "bunfight", in our case).
G'Day Patrick,

So, which race is that? And, when are ya gonna learn to relax ?(ho,ho).

Hope that all is well with you and Lisa. We hope to get our mast back next week and get outta this bloody marina!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:35   #176
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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The math I see over here is that when you're underway for 75-100 days a year in places with zero repair facilities and multi-week delays to order parts at best, you need to operate in a whole different mindset. The folks I talk to very much recommending bringing 2"x4" beams and as much spare plywood as you can handle.

It's really hard for me to imagine that you have sufficient spares and a boat currently ready, today, to spend that kind of time offshore in distant corners of the globe. I mean you currently have 10 shaft zincs and a dozen oil filters? The list is never ending and if you've never stared down the barrel of leaving your home country for the third world I just don't think you can get it.

Maybe you can, maybe you've done it before, maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. I've worked on boats and been in the Navy. Leaving for this trip is a whole different ball of wax when you really break it down.

Don't get too stressed out about stocking spares. You will be surprised at what you can obtain and get done in the third world these days. Some things and places will cost less than West Marine and SD boatyards, and somethings and places will cost more. Part of the adventure of cruising is fixing your boat in exotic places. One of the best days I had was finding a $40 oil cooler in a fishing boat store in Bali, and plumbing it to replace a friend's 4108 heat exchanger. Some of the most frustrating days were spent trying to get DHL packages through customs, but you will never see that side of a country if you fly in to the Hilton.

Its hard to guess what you will need, but if you don't have it, you can usually find it or a way to fix it after a round of the anchorage. Your fellow cruisers are always ready to help, especially when its 1500 miles to the nearest boatyard or chandlery.

Maybe they are already on your list, but what I have found invaluable are power tools (4" grinder, multitool, dremel, sabre saw, DA sander, and sewing machine) and an inverter to drive them. I always carry a gallon of West System epoxy and some glass, matt, and fillers.

You sound like you will be more prepared than most cruisers, so maybe you can spend your time fixing other boats. Just remember that you are going to live the dream, and most people who post here will never get to do that.

PS--4 oil filters should be plenty, plus enough oil for 2 changes. 4 shaft zincs should see you through a season or two and are pretty plentiful, but bring more specialized ones like the maxprop.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:31   #177
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

there is wood cheaper in mexico than in usa. no sweat. there is everything except plastic stuff cheaper in mexico than usa. same labor rates. usa is not ideal locale for repairing anything anymore. if ypu ever thought west marine was high in pricing, try zaragoza marine in puerto vallarta..we stay away from chandleries except for those cant get em anywhere else items....
if you need supplies in mexico other than foodstuffs, is here. dont have to carry stuff and stuff on board unless you plan on travel to uninhabited islands in a questionable boat.
omg--there is even ss here and welders who will properly weld it(by a rigger, even ) for 20 dollars...jeez--cannot fix a fitting needing welded in usa for under 100 dollars. the work here is good quality also. surprising as it may seem, mexico is advancing well into respectable nation status.
omg...changing..what a surprise.....and GOOD hardwood is less than 5 dollars per board foot...try that in usa...
.ipe (mexican or brazilian ironwood)is at 3 dollars per board foot, and folks use instead of teak..teak is , in usa, besides being unable to find in green state, almost 80 dollars per board foot in sd county.. go figger.

and if you need help in an area in which i have stayed a while, i can give names and numbers of facilitators so you can be able to find what you need

i found only spares i NEEDED were, starter, mebbe alternator, bilge pumps, charts, surge protecting power strips, extension cords...impellers, oil, antifreeze, distilled water--this is available in mega and other stores as agua para planchas. look in the cleaning section of the store for this. or go to a gas station and pay 15 pesos for a 500ml size of battery water--same stuff, no electrolyte, as is agua para planchas, which comes in half gallon for about 12 pesos.....
there are baby butt wipes , diapers aplenty and baby stuff everywhere--many babies here....lots of baby stuff everywhere-especially the street vendors selling off the outgrown clothing, in good shape---

there are even fiberglass specialty shops--EVERYTHING has a specialty shop..even motor rewinding and rebuilding starters, alternators and other items of similar ilk.....
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:45   #178
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

I know that Mexico has Abarco, a sort of mahogany, also you might find other hardwood species. The problem in the US, as I presume is a combination of greed, taxes and insurances. There is no real balance in the calculation of a product' s engineering, or producing cost. The absurd labour rates are probably a result of a lack of good and reliable mechanics. A SS welder in Holland would cost you about Euro 45,- an hour.

I lost the boom of the main spar in a thunderstorm in May, I bought a used one for less than 250 Euro. Frankly speaking, if I read all this, people in the US are plainly ripped off.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:46   #179
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

RH...I will also add here that if you stay in Marinas in Mx, mark your fenders with your name. It seems that other cruisers have a tendency to "borrow" them when you're not around. This is also true for dock-lines I hear.
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:45   #180
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

mac g--yes usa citizens are being ripped off--on EVERYTHING..i know--i am one..LOL... but dont use mahogany on structural parts--isnt able to withstand sea or fresh water, and rots in air. not my favorite wood--i like em a lil tougher, and able to stand up to sea water.

there is a hardwood here beginning with the sound yoo--i dont know the name-and ipe and some other appropriate hardwoods that like sea water and not fresh--i will be using one of those for my pinrails and pins, my structural refits, and other showcase items as well.... beautiful stuff... if huanacaxtle wood was able to be used without twisting, i would use it--is gorgeous, but with a terrible tendency to twist, literally, when wet. even after drying...am using some of that in dry areas for fiddles for my shelves. very inexpensive--under 2 dollars a board foot.
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