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Old 09-10-2012, 14:54   #136
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

I feel you. 5k for removing blisters, bottom job, new batteries, light bulbs tools etc, finally got out of carrabelle, and my reverse was gone. About 2k to rebuild, and thy do not make the gearbox anymore. Spending a lot, but I hate to buy the same parts off the us mainland with up to 400% in import taxes and maybe no skilled labour to do it right the first time. Well, anyway... In the end. Life is better on the boat.
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Old 09-10-2012, 15:04   #137
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

Right now it is clear to me which of the participants in this thread I'd like to share an anchorage with.

Cheers,

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Great, 1 more list my name is added to or not
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Old 09-10-2012, 16:50   #138
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

Getting back to the original post and poster: I feel your pain.

We are in the on-going process of taking a tired old racing boat and converting it to a blue-water capable cruising boat, so we know all about bleeding wallet syndrome. We do as much of the work as we can oursleves, and only pay professionals when we have to. Even so, since initial purchase back in 2005, the capital expenditure in renovating and refitting has been as follows:
2006 $6.5k
2007 $9.1k
2008 $9.7k
2009 $10.9k
2010 $10.1k
2011 $17.0k

Which equates to just over $10k per annum

That is a fairly all encompassing list (down to nuts and bolts) of capital expenditure purchases. In fact, it is a somewhat skewed by the fact that we continue to race the boat, albeit fairly casually, so we have purchased quite a lot of sails that we probably wouldn't have if we were just cruising. If we had stuck with sails that would have been good enough for cruising, we would still have been "bleeding" to the tune of $7k p.a.

Having said that, I have no regrets. Some of my friends own a car that cost as much as our boat is worth. I enjoy working on the boat and enjoy seeing the boat getting transformed from a tired old racer to a live aboard cruiser. We have only spent waht we could afford to spend. If we couldn't afford something this year, we can save and buy it next year!
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Old 09-10-2012, 16:59   #139
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
We're three weeks out from leaving the US for a few years, post shakedown cruise. I've already hemorrhaged serious dough, but the bleeding continues. Current crop:

- Repairing (hopefully, please god not replacing) heat exchanger.
- Stern chainplate (has to be fabricated; not just bar stock).
- Shrouds
- Engine spare parts

We saved up for it, but it still stings. I know people don't talk about numbers on here a lot, but I'll probably have dropped about $20K in the last couple of months which to me is a chunk of change. Took a long time to save that up. And that's with me doing nearly everything I can physically do, but I can't pull cables and heat exchangers out of my ass so those need to come from somewhere.

I'm just kind of ranting. It's this insane dichotomy of wanting the bleeding to stop, but also not wanting to be totally screwed in the middle of BFE.

Again, I'm talking *minimum* stuff here. No fancy gear, nothing elaborate, plenty of stuff that can be put off is. It's still crazy money.
I for one appreciate this kind of input. It's helpful to understand why people say that a used boat can "easily" cost $40-$50k in refitting. It's still hard for me to understand those numbers, to be honest. I know boat parts are expensive...

I've basically given up on the idea of going free and clear. I've pretty much resolved that I'm going to need a stream of income, and a pretty damned healthy one at that, no matter how many corners I cut, so that's where I'm focusing my efforts now.

Knowing what you know now, is there any "lesson learned" that you think you could have done something differently, perhaps in the acquisition or planning phase? Do you think you got a fair deal on the boat, or do you think the condition was far worse than you expected? Were you maybe hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst - and got the worst?

Sorry if the questions sound insulting or jabbing - I really don't mean it that way, I really just want to understand this topic better.
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Old 09-10-2012, 17:01   #140
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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I suggest that some can't afford a boat less than $100,000 because their commitments to family requires a commitment to an employer and payment of taxes (which support non-workers and infrastructure) resulting in the said "some" just not having any free time to maintain a project boat. The only way they can afford to go boating is to have the $100,000 boat!! Only those very wealthy in discretionary time can afford a $1000 + electricals, boat.
The only reason the very wealthy have a $200,000 boat is that they can't afford a $400,000 boat.
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Old 09-10-2012, 17:04   #141
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
Getting back to the original post and poster:
2006 $6.5k
2007 $9.1k
2008 $9.7k
2009 $10.9k
2010 $10.1k
2011 $17.0k

Which equates to just over $10k per annum


Having said that, I have no regrets. Some of my friends own a car that cost as much as our boat is worth. I enjoy working on the boat and enjoy seeing the boat getting transformed from a tired old racer to a live aboard cruiser. We have only spent waht we could afford to spend. If we couldn't afford something this year, we can save and buy it next year!
You are a good citizen ! All that money has gone to support the economy in difficult times. Employment and taxes
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Old 09-10-2012, 18:37   #142
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My first six months looks something like this.
1200 in launch fees
1600 haul out and bottom paint
4700 slip fees
800 powder coating hatches
4300 rear deck rebuild
4500 new refridgeration/install
1000 recovering cushions
800 two new deck boxes
200 new sink/counter top
2000 probably in various parts, lights, pumps, rebuild kits.
Cant remember my insurance bill. 1300 maybe?
Still have to do standing rigging, running rigging, front deck refurb, engine cleaning and work, motor mounts, thruster install/rework, wind instruments, engine instruments, work on auto pilot, hydraulic steering, cabin sole, rebuild starboard side of salon with mahagony, replace cabin sole, sort out plumbing, restore/replace the AC units, repaint/rebuild the masts, replace or repack/inspect the life raft, clean and refurb the sails, sort out electrical panel, replace and repair to ABYC standards, fix teak cap rail, replace all exterior lights. Did I know about it before, yes on some level, did I really understand the undertaking, no not really. Do I enjoy working on the boat, yes very much. Would I sell it if someone came up and offered me exactly what I have in it....yes probably! would I then obsess about it and second guess that decision, yes. Owning and older sail boat is something of a disease and akin to an addiction...all these things I'm learning as I go, and patience, lots and lots of patience.
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Old 09-10-2012, 18:44   #143
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
I for one appreciate this kind of input. It's helpful to understand why people say that a used boat can "easily" cost $40-$50k in refitting. It's still hard for me to understand those numbers, to be honest. I know boat parts are expensive...

I've basically given up on the idea of going free and clear. I've pretty much resolved that I'm going to need a stream of income, and a pretty damned healthy one at that, no matter how many corners I cut, so that's where I'm focusing my efforts now.

Knowing what you know now, is there any "lesson learned" that you think you could have done something differently, perhaps in the acquisition or planning phase? Do you think you got a fair deal on the boat, or do you think the condition was far worse than you expected? Were you maybe hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst - and got the worst?

Sorry if the questions sound insulting or jabbing - I really don't mean it that way, I really just want to understand this topic better.
read brent swains book! it is amazing how much stuff you can do without!
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Old 09-10-2012, 18:57   #144
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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Knowing what you know now, is there any "lesson learned" that you think you could have done something differently, perhaps in the acquisition or planning phase? Do you think you got a fair deal on the boat, or do you think the condition was far worse than you expected? Were you maybe hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst - and got the worst?

Sorry if the questions sound insulting or jabbing - I really don't mean it that way, I really just want to understand this topic better.
The main lesson is to come to terms with one's own personal perspective.

Used boats run the gamut from sail away to total rebuild.

Perspective is what do you value the boat at when it is in sail away condition and what does "sail away" condition mean to you.

Secondly I think most people under-estimate the amount of time, labor and money it takes to work on boats. If your time is limited then restoring a boat is not the optimal solution unless you have lots of money to outsource the work and monitor the work.

Finally there is a disconnect from many sellers who think they have a better boat then they have. Many sellers have paid XXX dollars for a boat, allowed it to run down and can't fathom selling for much less than XXX dollars.

If the boat purchase + repairs exceeds the value of a different near sail away boat then the excess value must be written off as the cost of the endeavor. The only other option is to keep looking for the boat that the seller is willing to part with for less money.

The big advantage of the restoration boat is that the owner can make the boat to his standards and knows the condition of the boat completely. This is a big advantage if one has the time to be a boat builder.
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Old 09-10-2012, 19:02   #145
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

I mean absolutely no disrespect to those who "make do" with a budget of pennies, and get by, quite happily doing that. But I don't go down that minimalist path. I acknowledge that this is a choice - that there is no inherently "right" or "wrong" way to approach boat ownership & maintenance, but I make a semi-informed decision to take a particular path. I am not denigrating the baling-wire and duct-tape approach - there are plenty of people who take this path, and if it works for you, more power to your arm! I have read, and thoroughly enjoyed, the Pardey's books and learned lots from them. But it will not be my approach. If the naval architect, or the rigger, or the electrician, or the diesel fitter, or the mechanical engineer (ooops, that last one is yours truly... I don't listen to his advice) advises on a certain path, I listen to that advice and act accordingly.
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Old 09-10-2012, 19:06   #146
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

Feeling Rebel Yell's pain myself this past weekend.

Friday afternoon I pay my sail loft $250 for bolting a new clew block onto the main.
Friday evening a buddy at the yacht club says, "At least it didn't cost you a boat buck."
Saturday morning I discover the water heater to be leaking.
Sunday morning I purchase a new water heater for $750.

There goes another boat buck.
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Old 09-10-2012, 19:11   #147
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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I mean absolutely no disrespect to those who "make do" with a budget of pennies, and get by, quite happily doing that. But I don't go down that minimalist path. I acknowledge that this is a choice - that there is no inherently "right" or "wrong" way to approach boat ownership & maintenance, but I make a semi-informed decision to take a particular path. I am not denigrating the baling-wire and duct-tape approach - there are plenty of people who take this path, and if it works for you, more power to your arm! I have read, and thoroughly enjoyed, the Pardey's books and learned lots from them. But it will not be my approach. If the naval architect, or the rigger, or the electrician, or the diesel fitter, or the mechanical engineer (ooops, that last one is yours truly... I don't listen to his advice) advises on a certain path, I listen to that advice and act accordingly.
There are choices of identical parts and design, equivalent parts and design, substitute parts and design and modified parts and design.

Coming from an aviation background I am predominantly like your mindset.

When I decide to substitute parts I act as engineer, inspector and government regulator.

I try to modify parts and design only when observed failure leads me to think and improvement can be made. In this case adjacencies need to be considered. For example, if I thicken a chainplate, what is the consequence on adjacent parts and overall design of the rig.

Bailing wire and duct tape are for limping home repairs only.
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Old 09-10-2012, 19:37   #148
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

probably preaching to the money lenders at the gates of the temple here,but it is a fact that poeople have been making voyages on wooden handmade boats,pretty much since man learnt to tie two sticks together.

in my part of the world quite a few of my neighbours live on 100 year old boats,that are still in daily use,and maintain them on minimal budgets.....(half of them are dole bludgers!) so it really is possable if you make the choice,gaffer tape and bailing wire is so pa'sse' yuppie yottie.......smelting and blacksmiting ones fittings,and caulking the leaks when the tide is out are the go in these parts
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Old 09-10-2012, 19:41   #149
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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Now isn't it a shame people burn it for fuel instead of using it for materials which we could supply for thousands of years and recycle as well?
Your logic is faulty. The parts of crude oil we burn for fuel is not really usable for plastics. Not in a cost efficient manner anyway.

Plastics represent about 4% of the crude oil by weight. Another 4% is used to separate the plastic bits of crude oil. 47% is gasoline, 23% is for heating oil and diesel fuel 18% other products, which includes petrochemical feedstock-products derived from petroleum principally for the manufacturing of chemicals, synthetic rubber and plastics 10% jet fuel 4% propane 3% asphalt (Percentages equal more than 100 because of an approximately 5% processing gain from refining

So its not really a shame at all.
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Old 09-10-2012, 20:44   #150
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Re: i'm spending so much money it hurts

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The main lesson is to come to terms with one's own personal perspective.
Completely agree, but I'd like to add that it's common for folks to fetishize the boat. That some of the choices they make with their boats are less about it being a tool to enable experiences, but an object, a possession, that is to be perfected and improved for it's own sake. I am implying no value judgement here, we all find joy in our own ways -- it would be tacky for me to comment on how there's a bit of femininity in the way a some Harley owners dote on their bikes with chrome and tassels.

I got excited for the OP when I read his post, because all of my cruising stories have begun with the ridiculous money being spent in the final days before shoving off. That sucks, but it is positive because it is the last moments of the beginning of the story. The very next part of the story has always been so wonderful, the part where we are out there, that it makes the last minute stress and chaos an inconsequential part of the experience.

Anyways, for me, once we are out there, it is a relief to have the boat no longer in easy flux: that whatever is right or wrong with the boat is now a given, and we must then make do with what we have -- a flakey engine, the wrong sails, marginal batteries, or whatever. And this completely wipes away any tendencies I have to fetishize the boat, and it becomes solely a tool to enable experiences. That frame of mind is much more natural and enjoyable for me.

The next time, I am going to try and skip this somewhat icky 'final moments' thing, through a novel strategy, but .. I've done it every time, so I don't think I can take myself too seriously and try to not repeat the same mistakes again and again. Last time, in the final week, we replaced the fridge, reinsulated it, replaced all of the batteries, added a super alternator, fixed the watermaker (that'd been broken for years), and ... I don't know, so much. Suddenly all the things on my list that we'd ignored, or thought -- who cares -- became very important when we were faced with "Do it now, or live for the next n months with it not done". When I look back at that period, I think -- we should have just left a week earlier and skipped that.
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