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Old 15-09-2016, 04:05   #106
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming View Post
... Honestly, its all a matter of style. I'm 5 feet tall, 110 lbs and nearing 50. You can't take advantage of me, I've been around a bit. But with my stature it's best to approach the problem as a "tough mother" (good old mom) figure and appeal to a person innate fear of mom! ....
Indeed.

A customer of mine, who owned a chain of video arcades, always hired middle aged or senior women to manage them. He said that they were able to manage unruly young men without “confrontation” (in scolding grandmother fashion); whereas teens would challenge male managers.
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Old 15-09-2016, 04:41   #107
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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. . . although, most esteemed DH, I don't feel entitled to feel responsibility of other people's whims and expectations (happiness included!), given the do ut does balance (my boat costs 2000eur/month just to get floating)....

I never expected people gybing in F7, cooking for me, or explaining to me Riemann's conjectures... I (merely) expected people to be happy in summertime on a nice boat in a warm climate, but apparently anyone loves an Ego-massage first.:-). . . .


I certainly understand this point of view. Like I said, the cost of provisions, fuel and berthing is just a symbolic part of the total cost of a long trip on a decent sized yacht.

YET -- if you need crew, or if you find it more fun making a long voyage with crew (as I do), you still MUST have an agreement -- a meeting of the minds -- on what everyone expects from each other. Otherwise you will have nothing but problems. Which this thread proves amply. Just being in awe of the privilege of being on your million euro yacht is never going to be enough -- you can't buy people's time for that, at least not the time of people who are worth anything as crew. You cannot get around figuring out their expectations and finding a mutually beneficial arrangement, or it won't work.
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Old 15-09-2016, 04:45   #108
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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Indeed.

A customer of mine, who owned a chain of video arcades, always hired middle aged or senior women to manage them. He said that they were able to manage unruly young men without “confrontation” (in scolding grandmother fashion); whereas teens would challenge male managers.
In my experience, middle-aged women are altogether superior managers of people. Men, especially young men, seem to be hard-wired to do a range of stupid things when trying to manage other people, whereas women of a certain age seem to be born with a range of necessary skills. It's much more difficult, like 10x more difficult, with 1/10 the chance of success, to make a good manager out of a young man, than out of a middle aged woman.

That sounds sexist, I know, but saying that doesn't violate the laws of the country where my business is registered
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Old 15-09-2016, 04:47   #109
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

There is a great lesson to be learned here and everyone that plans to sail for more than 3 days with anyone should read these threads because these problems can end up being more of a problem than any other aspect of sailing !!
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Old 16-09-2016, 06:59   #110
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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This is where the Wife and I differ, if I have people who act that way, I'm throwing them off the boat, nearest spot possible.
I am way too old for that stuff, I don't expect them to grovel, but I was brought up to say yes Mam and yes Sir and thank you, please and I expect the same, I don't get it, your gone.
Wife on the other hand would worry about Family, what would they they think for kicking Cousin George off on an island.
I don't care.


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Old 17-09-2016, 02:08   #111
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

I have learned people have different personalities and lifestyles. They bring with them a diversity of backgrounds, customs and habits. If you want people to act like you do, adhere to your set of rules and standards, to share all your values and points of view, perhaps you should sail alone.
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Old 21-09-2016, 04:44   #112
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

this is all good for us who may one day be in a similar situation..from other's shared experience's, we gain knowledge.thanks..
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Old 21-09-2016, 05:54   #113
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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I have learned people have different personalities and lifestyles. They bring with them a diversity of backgrounds, customs and habits. If you want people to act like you do, adhere to your set of rules and standards, to share all your values and points of view, perhaps you should sail alone.
Respect is a two way street. "Rules and standards" are not there to micro manage people. They exist to ensure safety and mutually agreeable living conditions. "Values", one needs to not lie or steal. That shouldn't be tough. "Points of view", it's best not to get into heated discussions. If you don't agree with the discussion, pleasantly change the subject. I don't see how these things are so hard to deal with? If the challenge is difficult for you, look in the mirror.
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Old 21-09-2016, 07:10   #114
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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Respect is a two way street. "Rules and standards" are not there to micro manage people. They exist to ensure safety and mutually agreeable living conditions. "Values", one needs to not lie or steal. That shouldn't be tough. "Points of view", it's best not to get into heated discussions. If you don't agree with the discussion, pleasantly change the subject. I don't see how these things are so hard to deal with? If the challenge is difficult for you, look in the mirror.
For nearly 20 years I was the owner and general manager of a music entertainment company that employed 22 people and performed at over 1000 weddings per year, I know how to get along with people even on the most stressful day of their lives.

Two of the jerks we invited onto our boat were just that.... jerks. Some people are simply jerks without appropriate social skills or brain to mouth filters. Kinda like the out of control drunk at the dinner party, where someone needs to show them the door... because no amount of discussion or reasoning is going to solve the problem.

Police carry a tazer for these type of situations.
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Old 21-09-2016, 14:39   #115
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

To anyone thinking about taking on crew, here's what happened to some friends of ours, who had a rather slow boat. They were asked by an acquaintance who was down on his luck to take him back to Oz when they left, and they agreed.

On the second day out of Luganville, this guy changed course to the north without telling the skipper. The course is west or south of west, depending on your port of entry. Fortunately, they were far enough off not to run into anything. As it developed, each night, this guy didn't follow instructions.

So, then, the couple had to watch him at all times, and there went the "help" an extra crew member might have provided.

The worst was yet to come. He ran out of the booze he'd sneaked aboard (the couple are teetotal), and now he was in DT's. What with going the wrong way, and light airs, their trip was 12 days, and horrible the whole way. Then, they sold the boat.

The problem is that people can sneak, and you cannot really tell in advance how they will work out. I do not think a daysail will reveal what you need to know. And the man abovementioned, well, he was an independent businessman, so the follow-through, had been there, that filter wouldn't have worked for our friends.

We've seen both sides of this issue over the years, and my feel for it is that if you go for the contract way of handling things, that in itself puts you in charge from the beginning. And if the contract is well written, it also should give you the right to ditch someone, if need be. In foreign countries, you may have to pay his or her airfare out, but you will be able to discharge them.

However, to those prospective crew out there, especially women are vulnerable to skippers who take their passports. Knew a lovely young woman who wanted off an alcoholic's boat really bad, didn't know what to do, because he wouldn't give her back the passport. This guy had a minor problem with the law, too, and in that case, I believe she asked the local LEO for help, and it was provided.

It is just part of life that there are human predators in our world, and some of them are very good at hiding it.

Ann
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Old 21-09-2016, 14:57   #116
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

That's a horrible situation Ann - I'm so sorry for your friends.

In re passports, my feeling is the skipper has the duty and right to inspect prior to departure to verify things are in order with appropriate visa/nationality/time remaining - but think crew gets to decide whether they keep it or it goes in the go bag.
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Old 21-09-2016, 15:23   #117
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

*I've only read the first post so this is only directed at that.

I feel your pain! Years ago I owned a 38' sports fisher. My wife at the time worked for a lawyer firm so she decided to have a little cruise party. What a bunch of jerks. Sure they had a great time but the criticism days later and mess they left behind, turned me off to ever doing it again.

As well, I have found, not to invite non boat owners out on the boat. They do their "Ooohs and Awes" when they find out you have a boat but they never have time or the guts (sea sick) to go out. It's like flattery. So I stick to the docks and other boat owners when it comes to boat socializing.
For some boating is a dream/reality. To others its a fantasy! (fan ta sea)

If you want to have a good time on the boat with others, invite other boat owners or PBOs that understand the hard work and maintenance that goes into owning a boat. As well, it would be a SAFER and better organized trip. And they would probably pitch in for clean up on arrival to port.
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Old 21-09-2016, 19:46   #118
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
To anyone thinking about taking on crew, here's what happened to some friends of ours, who had a rather slow boat. They were asked by an acquaintance who was down on his luck to take him back to Oz when they left, and they agreed.

On the second day out of Luganville, this guy changed course to the north without telling the skipper. The course is west or south of west, depending on your port of entry. Fortunately, they were far enough off not to run into anything. As it developed, each night, this guy didn't follow instructions.

So, then, the couple had to watch him at all times, and there went the "help" an extra crew member might have provided.

The worst was yet to come. He ran out of the booze he'd sneaked aboard (the couple are teetotal), and now he was in DT's. What with going the wrong way, and light airs, their trip was 12 days, and horrible the whole way. Then, they sold the boat.

The problem is that people can sneak, and you cannot really tell in advance how they will work out. I do not think a daysail will reveal what you need to know. And the man abovementioned, well, he was an independent businessman, so the follow-through, had been there, that filter wouldn't have worked for our friends.

We've seen both sides of this issue over the years, and my feel for it is that if you go for the contract way of handling things, that in itself puts you in charge from the beginning. And if the contract is well written, it also should give you the right to ditch someone, if need be. In foreign countries, you may have to pay his or her airfare out, but you will be able to discharge them.

However, to those prospective crew out there, especially women are vulnerable to skippers who take their passports. Knew a lovely young woman who wanted off an alcoholic's boat really bad, didn't know what to do, because he wouldn't give her back the passport. This guy had a minor problem with the law, too, and in that case, I believe she asked the local LEO for help, and it was provided.

It is just part of life that there are human predators in our world, and some of them are very good at hiding it.

Ann
Like I said before in this thread, better to go alone, if you have to have people around you, there will be plenty at a marina, or maybe if you know them very well, I'm suspicious of people by nature and I don't have to have people around me, best to have a boat you can handle by yourself, if you get into trouble it's on you, it's been my experience that people cause more problems than anything else
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Old 22-09-2016, 01:35   #119
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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. . . It is just part of life that there are human predators in our world, and some of them are very good at hiding it.

Ann

Yes, this is certainly true.

A friend of mine was drugged and robbed of everything including his passport, in Kiev, by a very charming and seemingly innocent girl he met.

The daughter of friends of mine was raped on a date with a college classmate.


I do not, however, take away from this that one should avoid dating and simply stay home playing with oneself, any more than stories of genuinely bad crew experiences mean that one should avoid taking on crew.


There are risks, which cannot be eliminated, but which can be mitigated by some perceptiveness, experience, and people skills (no hard-core alcoholic like in Ann's story would have ever made it onto my boat, for example -- I can recognize them a mile away just from the physical signs). You still need a little luck, but all of life is like that, isn't it?
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Old 22-09-2016, 13:23   #120
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

Dockhead makes a good point, some skippers have a lot more worldly experience than others, and I am certain that makes for a better tuned BS filter than our friends had.

I also think that the issue of not being dealt with respectfully may be more of a danger to female skippers, because they are generally smaller physically than males. While women of a certain age may make excellent managers, what is one to to at sea with a crew who is (through non-medicated mental illness) sabotaging things? Pretty gol-durn scary, if you ask me! Sure, you ditch them as soon as you make landfall, but if you're on a passage past your 1/2 way mark----wow! that's survival time. People may not fess up to what medications they're supposed to be taking. In the case I have in mind, the illness is Schizophrenia, and the meds to control it have side effects the patients don't like, so it is not uncommon to stop taking them, then become symptomatic.

Of course, you're right, Dockhead, you shouldn't let what happens to others control what you do. But I think it really helps to know the shapes that "going pear shaped" may assume for skippers who take on unknown crew.

Ann
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