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Old 12-09-2016, 19:27   #16
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
This summer I hosted for free (100%) a number of person to relief me from solo-sailing, for having company and conversation. Several nationalities, ages, and sex

No more then 2pxs on a 54', thus being 3 in total maximum

In 100% of cases (say 15pxs) I received Different (not the same...) criticism, for This or That, in disparaged order...

I mean, people seem dedicated to opinionated guessing, in many cases without any proper ground of experience. And a short-sighted reasoning.
Someone even pretended to decide on sleeping places affecting My Cabin...or where I keep tools or cooking ware...

For those few with a noticeable experience, it was the opposite, the comments were shooting too high, as coming from/after a 2m$ renovation (sic!) of a 86' old classic...

In spite of the total gratuity (meals, fuel, at times restaurants..all included) no one showed gratefulness in words, and usually leaving was a mutual relief. Even when I was left alone with 150nm ahead.

In 2 cases, I had to plainly and kindly ask people to leave at short convenience, and anyone took his/her own best time to do it (from days to one week later.... at a cost for me).
!

People want the "vacation", they don't care of work duties, want to stop here and there....have their own time schedules, their own standard for cleanliness, order, punctuality... usually all well misplaced on board (including the grand-dame spotting any stains but unable to brush the loo....).

Another complication? People buying a return ticket one month ahead, thus conditioning our cruising which I like to depend on weather allowances and my whims, not someone's tickets....

I speak of life aboard and social behaviour, since speaking about nautical skills would be hilarious.... people pretending 5 yrs boating yet unable to hitch a fender are the norm...
At helm? My AP is better, sure.
Orders? Are not listened to (at 3rd attempt, she was relieved from helm, and never touched it again)

All in all... a miserable experience, where I never heard the word "Sorry" even in front of damages, breakings, ruined /lost materials and gear. Thank you? Optional.

How many complained to me of the flight cost to reach me!? The majority, 2/3 at least...

I am honestly appaled.
A boat is someone's house first, would you go as a guest to a house saying that a table cloth is " disgusting", the sofa must switch position with the table, and cutlery should go in another cupboard.??

Speachless
Without hearing the other side of the argument its presumptive to make constructive comments.

In the interest of self reflection what would the other parties describe as your strength and weaknesses?

There is a reason the military rarely like 3 people as the smallest autonomous unit. 4 is typically the smallest unit size for special forces. 5 in Australia so there is a spare if one becomes incapacitated.

Three people in confined spaces and stressful situations will often have two gang up on the other. It sounds like you have experienced what is a genetic characteristic.

Have you tried four as a minimum. Five is better when voting is needed.



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Old 12-09-2016, 20:00   #17
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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For the record... I have - from left to right - forks , knives , spoons, sundry ****, teaspoons at the front....
Teaspoons at the FRONT!!!??? What are you thinking man? This no good, I am sorry, we just can't go sailing together.

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Old 12-09-2016, 20:02   #18
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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There is a reason the military rarely like 3 people as the smallest autonomous unit. 4 is typically the smallest unit size for special forces. 5 in Australia so there is a spare if one becomes incapacitated.

Three people in confined spaces and stressful situations will often have two gang up on the other. It sounds like you have experienced what is a genetic characteristic.

Have you tried four as a minimum. Five is better when voting is needed.
Interesting... this fits with some of the (surprisingly) useful management training I did in the 90s.
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Old 12-09-2016, 20:49   #19
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

Unknown crew are more often than not a liability rather than a help. A boat is a difficult place to be stuck with a stranger 24/7 at the best of times, even if that stranger is agreeable.

You need an compatable person, and a competant sailer. If you find someone that has both characteristics you are very lucky!

Thats one reason why I stuck with a smaller boat that I can easily manage on my own.

I agree that 3 is the worst number to have on a boat, the old 2's company, 3's a crowd rule applies well. More people tends to even out the personalities a bit better, though the chances of a clash get higher with more people any clashes seem to be smaller.
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Old 12-09-2016, 20:51   #20
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

My crew has been a mixture of friends, friends of friends, and the occasional last-minute unknown. With these unknowns I spend fifteen minutes or so talking with them to discuss their experience and to get an idea about their personality. Some of my crew have had more experience than me, and others have been total greenhorns -- we've run the full range of experience. I generally pay travel expenses (unless the crewmember prefers to pay their own way), and I provide the food.

In over 40,000 miles of sailing I've never had a horrible crewmember. There is just one who I wouldn't invite to join me again, and even he did what he needed to do as a crewmember. There is always friction and disagreement, just like in any relationship, but ultimately we get along and usually become friends. Of course I don't have fine silk pillows -- I expect that things will sometimes get messy on a boat that is being sailing hard. Still, it's a nice boat and I try to keep it that way.

One thing I don't do is act like I am doing my crew a favor. They are playing by my rules, and helping me get my boat where I want to go. They work hard and I appreciate it. I don't know you, and I apologize if I am reading your situation wrong, but perhaps you should think about your attitude towards your crew. Respect has to go both ways.
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Old 12-09-2016, 21:35   #21
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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Have you tried four as a minimum. Five is better when voting is needed.
When voting is needed. These people are guests on a boat. They are not paying for food or anything. But that is almost beside the point. A boat has a Captain. These people have no vote. They have the duty to follow reasonable instructions. The duty to be respectful of the Captain -home owner, Duty to contribute in the galley and on deck. And the absolute duty to be thankful that a kind person has given them so much and such an opportunity.

If this was a shared boat where everybody owned shares in the boat and everyone contributed equally as boat owners then a vote would be appropriate. But even then. A person who is the nominated Captain is the person in charge. Deciding when to leave a port is the Captains decision because of weather conditions. Etc. Etc.

If these people lied about experience and ate your food, slept on your boat (home) and we're not able to contribute as this was the purpose of you having them on board. You have every right to put them ashore at the next port. And to heck with how they get home. They lied.

Liers and rude pieces of work have no place aboard a vessel.

I would be very concerned about having on board a real nut case that could stab you while asleep. Or push you overboard because he didn't like being told to be more careful how he used the head.

With the general deterioration of society in so many ways you need to be very careful. Any sign of mental instability. They are off.

Would you go around picking strangers up off the street and have them come and live in your home? It's like playing Russian Roulette if you don't know very well who they are.

I like what the other sailor suggested. Take potential crew out for a full day or overnight cruise first. Watch them, test them and any sign of rudeness, lack of teachability, skills or mental emotional issues then return them to port and wave them goodbye.

If you can sail solo then enjoy your freedom. If you get lonely, buy a cat or dog. If it's a mate in the long term relationship you are looking for then relax, walk you cat or dog to cafes and let destiny work it's magic.

Good luck and happy sailing.

Chaya
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Old 12-09-2016, 22:21   #22
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

"Consensus is the death of leadership"...

Margaret Thatcher




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Old 12-09-2016, 22:26   #23
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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"Consensus is the death of leadership"...

Margaret Thatcher




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Old 12-09-2016, 22:55   #24
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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My kind of women.
Eh? Mentally unstable then dead?
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Old 12-09-2016, 23:06   #25
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

OP,

You're not alone in your frustration.

I've had two experiences that have worked out exactly the same. No thanks, no help, grossly exagerated their experience, just complainers along for the ride who questioned every decision and refused to follow important instructions.

From now on, it's only family and friends we know well who will be welcome. It's way to stressful to have the ingrates aboard.
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Old 12-09-2016, 23:22   #26
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

Reading this is just making me sad.

To my mind, just because I own the boat, I am not endowed with any rights to ignore the wishes and feelings of others I have invited aboard. I would never call myself a captain, I'm just the idiot who coughed up the readies to purchase the floating condo, and I welcome aboard friends or adventurers as equals and participants in the fun.

Sure, I have a duty of care to do what I can to keep my fellow passengers SAFE, and comfortable if I can, so if I felt someone was behaving in a way that jeopardised their safety, the crew's safety or my safety, I would be DUTY BOUND to ask them to leave, but after that, it's a democracy on my boat.

I'll be buggered if I would sail on a boat that treated me otherwise. (And thank you, but I would REALLY not like to have sailed with Maggie Thatcher at the helm.)

Maybe I am nave, but so far it has paid dividends.

A lesson learned from our first significant sea passage

Oh yeah, and there a few CF members who have sailed with me now that might back me up, or out me as a fascist bully boy living in a land of delusion. Time will tell.

Matt
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Old 12-09-2016, 23:25   #27
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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People are stupidly careless.

I have pillows of silk, the best I found, from UK, embroidered, 250eur/meter

I had 2 distinct people putting their bare feet on them....

There is no excuse in laying down like a pig in front of the owner/skipper just sitting in front. This is what (random) people are..

I am still friend to gys I sailed with in the 90s, when education was a less rare commodity than nowadays

Makes one wonder: What kept you from pulling a Natalie Wood
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Old 12-09-2016, 23:38   #28
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

Sorry you had such a negative experience. Even day guests and family require instruction. The limits need to be clear and out front. Personally, i would not have silk cushions that I would worry about on a boat, but the crew should have been informed in advance that they were important to you. I think your expectations of landlubbers are quite high.

Even ones with sailing experience. I had some experience a long time ago on race boats, and honestly, sometimes the crews trash them. Crew, especially race crew sometimes think they're hot s**t, and that's a life stance that can be difficult to instruct.

To landlubbers, your boat is a toy. If it's a large and expensive toy, so what, it's basically a vehicle. So they haven't a clue if you're a tad "house proud." They wouldn't "get it" at all. It's like so many newbies look at buying a sailboat like they would buying a SUV.

Ultimately, it is as if your grandkids came to visit your boat. If their parents don't set the limits, wow, you just step up and be Mr. Dragon, for the good of everyone. Other landlubbers are the same. They are infernally ignorant, and especially of personal values of a new skipper.

So I agree with the people above who suggested you streamline your pre-cruise character searches, and set the limits from the very first meeting. Let them know this is not a democracy--your word is law. The lines of communication have to be clear, and preferably open, so you tell them what you expect and how you want them to do *it*.
Different ships, different long splices. Me, I'd also tell them that if they have questions, they should ask when should they ask them. (Obviously, not in the middle of something difficult.) It's fun to teach people, but the timing has to be yours.

A former CF member, "monte", RIP, monte, posted a contract he had made up for visiting crew, and so did "jackdale," the last time this issue came up.

You might try a CF Google Special Search (found under the Search menu button) to have a look at those. When you do, you'll be able to see how it starts as they wish to go on, with them as skippers, respected and in control of the situation.

Good luck with it. We have never taken on crew, mostly because we take care of each other, and don't want someone else to take care of. Of course, that could change in the future, but it is a task which we will approach with great care. A little good luck never hurts!

Cheers,

Ann, who believes being crew for an unknown skipper is as potentially dangerous to the crew , as it is for the skipper
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Old 13-09-2016, 00:24   #29
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

Respect does go both ways, but it still needs to be earned.

Sounds like the OP made choices based on pragmatic arrangements rather than feelings of mutual respect.

That takes face time together looking after the boat, to confirm synergy... You can't do that via internet when making a commitment
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Old 13-09-2016, 00:41   #30
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Re: How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

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Reading this is just making me sad.

To my mind, just because I own the boat, I am not endowed with any rights to ignore the wishes and feelings of others I have invited aboard. I would never call myself a captain, I'm just the idiot who coughed up the readies to purchase the floating condo, and I welcome aboard friends or adventurers as equals and participants in the fun.

Sure, I have a duty of care to do what I can to keep my fellow passengers SAFE, and comfortable if I can, so if I felt someone was behaving in a way that jeopardised their safety, the crew's safety or my safety, I would be DUTY BOUND to ask them to leave, but after that, it's a democracy on my boat.

I'll be buggered if I would sail on a boat that treated me otherwise. (And thank you, but I would REALLY not like to have sailed with Maggie Thatcher at the helm.)

Maybe I am nave, but so far it has paid dividends.

A lesson learned from our first significant sea passage

Oh yeah, and there a few CF members who have sailed with me now that might back me up, or out me as a fascist bully boy living in a land of delusion. Time will tell.

Matt
Obviously, you've never sailed with an out of control drunken jackass onboard your boat. You're right "time will tell." I sincerely hope your luck with democracy continues.
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