How do you deal with a bad captain?

[s/v Beth]

NoQ- this guy's home base isn't in Fort Lauderdale by any chance?? Was he unmarried with a couple of girlfriends in their 60's? I can't imagine he is still sailing though, he'd be close to 90 by now. Now that would be funny.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

There is almost no reason to raise your voice on a boat unless it's in order to be heard over the ambient noise, caused by the wind or the engine or whatever is noisy.

If he was "yelling" at you, rather than increasing volume, it was probably an indication that he lacked confidence in his own abilities.

I spend a LOT of time on the water with crews of widely varying ability and experience levels and never ever yell at any body. I don't see anything wrong with you jumping ship, as long as you informed him where you were going so he wasn't worried about you- which it sounds like you did.

What I don't think you should have done is constantly question his decisions. You questioned his collision avoidance techniques. One thing I can't get my head around is the bilge thing. I could be wrong, but I think when coastal cruising most people leave their bilge pumps set to automatic- I know many do any way.

If motoring a lot, as you would be on the icw, a properly adjusted shaft seal will drip continuously, you just want to keep the water on the outside as much as possible- easiest way I know of to do that is an automatic bilge pump.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I think I've read enough now that I can make some meaningful suggestions.

It sounds like he had a faulty float switch on his bilge pump, meaning you had to manually flip the switch. A little bit of a sheen or greasy film in a bilge is normal for all but the best maintained boat. If you're running your engine and your bilge isn't making water your packing gland is too tight. From what I have read here- regarding the bilge, the guy likely did what any ordinary seaman would have done. I don't see any fault on his part at all.

Because of the above, I'm going to leave the technical aspects of seamanship alone.

As far as leadership goes, it sounds as though he may have had some weaknesses- maybe the guy wasn't an experienced leader, good seamanship and old age doesn't make somebody a good leader. At the same time I get the impression you and your partner were not experienced followers either, which likely exaggerated the situation.

I dont think a lack of social skills on any ones part was really the route cause of any problems either.

I think the dog that bit you was human nature. 30' is a very small space for strangers to hang out in for 2 months. I do lots of deliveries, some times as crew, more often as skipper. I much prefer paid crew when I can get them, not because of experience, but because people tend to interact differently when they are under the influence of a contract and that employer-employee relationship exists.

When I do take on voluntary crew- I steel myself first. I walk myself through it, mentally prepare myself. I generally let volunteer crew do as they please and learn as much or as little as they want to learn- in the hopes they will be there for me when things get tricky. I'd never yell at a paid crew, but even less so at unpaid crew.

Where I think your skipper made a real error in judgement- was taking inexperienced voluntary crew on board for 2 months on a 30' boat. It was a powder keg- you were bound to fight in those circumstances.

So, my advise on how to deal with a bad skipper would be, let's assume there was no bad skipper or bad crew, just a bad situation. The next time you plan a trip, make an effort to make a holistic approach to your planning, make contingency plans for all kinds of situations (including what to do if the skippers a jerk).

Get your hands on a risk and hazard analysis template- enter your concerns, and find strategies to mitigate risks. Probably the single most important element to a successful passage is careful planning. This planning is generally conducted by the skipper, but that doesn't mean the crew can't have their own plan in place.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[ti325v]

Wow, an amazing thread.
Noq, I want to tear into you for the "I can do it better then you", but that is of no consequence as I see you have realized many of your errors.
I do not captain a boat, but I have a lot of young people work in VERY close quarters on our boat, with life and death responsibilities to our customers in our dive business. I just need to add, though it has been said.... Seems you drove this guy nuts ( He may well have been Captain Bligh) and I may be wrong but as a newly qualified crusty old fart.
(Just cracked 50) I simply must say...
Young people today simply send me over the edge with passive aggressive behavior, failure to follow though on promises, the absolute inability to communicate openly and honestly, self absorption...
Some who work for me love me, the vast majority are gone in under two weeks, despite weeks spent interviewing and hours on the phone discussing the responsibilities they have as dive leaders and representatives of my business. Once they arrive everything they promised they could do simply evaporates.
I do not know for sure if it is you, or he was Bligh, but heaps of experience with younger people....
In any case, learn from your experience, it is over. That is the only positive thing you can do with it. I think the fact that you dwelled on it and it took so long for you to begin to take the lesson on board and move on. I feel there are issues on your end.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

But since the first step of getting on a boat with a "bad captain" had already occurred, it was a little late for your "better" phrasing.

But IMO OP's question was how to deal with one not just retroactively after the fact but prospectively before the fact. I sensed from the info provided that OPs were excited to get sea time experience and did not dwell into the depth of the details before they even agreed to crew. A day spent with the skipper both on and off the boat would go a long way in exposing mutual incompatibilities, upleasant quirks, etc. I also understand that whoever need this the most would try to present a much better than in reality picture of oneself. But that should also be taken into account when figuring out if this will work.

I was also put off by the OP's attitude "I can do as good of a job as this guy or any guy, blah-blah". If anyone said that on my boat my reply would be: "Oh yeah? Then get your own freaking boat if you can do as good a job of buying, maintaining and sailing a boat as I can". Talk is cheap. Show me that you're are truly equal by your deeds and accomplishments and not because your college professor and the media say you are.

[s/v Beth]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

But IMO OP's question was how to deal with one not just retroactively after the fact but prospectively before the fact. I sensed from the info provided that OPs were excited to get sea time experience and did not dwell into the depth of the details before they even agreed to crew. A day spent with the skipper both on and off the boat would go a long way in exposing mutual incompatibilities, upleasant quirks, etc. I also understand that whoever need this the most would try to present a much better than in reality picture of oneself. But that should also be taken into account when figuring out if this will work.

I was also put off by the OP's attitude "I can do as good of a job as this guy or any guy, blah-blah". If anyone said that on my boat my reply would be: "Oh yeah? Then get your own freaking boat if you can do as good a job of buying, maintaining and sailing a boat as I can". Talk is cheap. Show me that you're are truly equal by your deeds and accomplishments and not because your college professor and the media say you are.

Good advice, and said here before. I routinely take my new to me sailors out day sailing to see how they interact with each other and myself....though once again you never really know how a person is going to react to the big swells and wind till it happens.
The OP does have a boat- but I think they lack experience in the big wet one. Everyone needs to start somewhere.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

Good advice, and said here before. I routinely take my new to me sailors out day sailing to see how they interact with each other and myself....though once again you never really know how a person is going to react to the big swells and wind till it happens.
The OP does have a boat- but I think they lack experience in the big wet one. Everyone needs to start somewhere.

Agree, especially about having to start somewhere. My own sailing was started by accident when I was invited by an acquaintance with whom I worked in the same office about 10 years prior. When we were collegues we actually did not like each other as he's type A personality and I'm type B.

Another old time colleague was in town from his job overseas and my sailing former co-worker wanted to get together, take us for a day sail, etc. I was not only a newbie then but this was my very first time on a real sailboat and not just some "Jolly Roger" tourist ship. But having seen my excitement about being on a sailboat and my desire to learn and get into sailing for real I became this guy's favorite crew when he wanted to day sail and later to go on extended trips. Eventually I took a course in this sailing club, spent 4-5 seasons there sailing around New England and the rest is history.

He later told me of his woes in the past 10 years trying to match club people, friends and strangers to crew with him. It was always one thing or another - either major personality clashes, or unwillingness to follow orders, or total disregard for the needs of others, or work related constraints, or all of the above. After a few years when we reminisced about it he did confide to me that he initially was sure that I'll quickly fall by the wayside due to our clash of personalities and our past mutual dislike in the office.

So my own little example is a testament that one does not really need great sailing resume or to be in total synch with the skipper. Just need willingness to learn, common sense and ability to relax with less than perfect persons with whom one may find oneself in close quarters.

[taildragerdrive]

This has been a very interesting thread.

It brings to mind one of the lessons my late father told me about from a very early age. "If you think you know everything about something your done learning about that thing. You should never assume you know everything about anything"

I have been flying for 25 years. In flying as in sailing if you are Captain (Pilot In Command) you have the responsibility for all others lives. That can be stressful for me. That may cause me to get a bit excited and it may cause me to raise my voice (could be considered yelling by some).

One of the things I've learned is my life is the person you are flying/sailing with who is just a learning still has something to offer and you should be open to it. (open to new learning) They often have had more recent training and may notice something you have forgotten or some new methods you have never seen.

Also when your out with a person who has thousands of sea miles or thousands of flying hours there is more to learn than you have time to learn no matter how long you are together no matter who is captain/PIC.

I try to keep that humble point of view. Sometimes I do better at being humble than other times. I also try to look at things I think the other person may do differently than I would and try to evaluate weather I'm wrong not immediately jump to the conclusion that they are wrong.

I think that is from my perspective where the OP missed the boat in her discussion. My dad would have said she had a chip on her shoulder.

I like to crew and so far each experience has been worth while and I have learned a lot and I know I have more learning to do in sailing than I have years in my life.

Thanks for the good discussion. One of the great things about reading CF.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Social change happens when we all grow a pair ()

Funny you should say that. I've been itching to tell the OP to do this throughout the thread, but so far I've resisted the temptation.

[Steve1944]

Greenhand, hey! It's a boat, not a ship.

[Wrong]

Look. All you have to be able to do in respect to dealing with crew is know how to say:

Off the boat, NOW!

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by steve1944

Greenhand, hey! It's a boat, not a ship.

It was getting odd enough that I was picturing a slap stick space western.

This thread reminds me of the dock line one. Are there really that many people out there who are afraid to talk?

[Steadman Uhlich]

I have read all of the comments in this thread.

_______________________

I think the core question is easy to answer in most cases:


OP: "How do you deal with a bad captain?"

Steady: "Don't be a bad crew!"

_______________________

[monte]

On a broader scale, I think one thing that should be taken from the situation is 'always have a contingency plan'
I believe this is one factor that can mean the difference between a good and bad experience with most things, especially sailing. Generally we always plan for the worst and have backup plans sorted before heading out. We study the charts, study the weather, study the safe harbours and make multiple plans to cover any foreseen situations. Unforeseen situations can be dealt with easier because you have a similar scenario that will cover them in a lot of cases.
A simple contingency plan for crew in this situation would be imagining how they might manage leaving the boat after a day, a week or a month if things don't work out on onboard. How they might return home. It would probably cover some basic expense details like how much money toward provisions up front so as not to be caught short.
Best of luck to the OP in finding more fulfilling crewing experiences in the future, and learning from the less than perfect experiences, and the same to the skipper...

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I have read all of the comments in this thread.

_______________________

I think the core question is easy to answer in most cases:


OP: "How do you deal with a bad captain?"

Steady: "Don't be a bad crew!"

_______________________

Of course that's true and it's clear what you mean to all of those who have the necessary experience to understand the difference between bad and good crew, but if you have no experience being crew of any kind, or very limited experience being crew, how are you supposed to know enough to not be bad crew? A good captain would naturally at least attempt to mold them into a good crew. In this case, he doesn't seem to have completely succeeded, but since the OP did ask the question and seems genuinely interested, maybe there's hope for both.

[NoQuarter79]

We did meet this guy and kinda got to know him months before we crewed for him. We had just never sailed with him before this. A lot changed from land to sea.

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

If there was "no time" for all of this checking each other out, I, as a potential crew would be very apprehensive as such rush to sign on a crew would tend to show that either a) the captain was not very competent to start looking for crew in a timely fashion or b) not very sociable and lost an already scheduled crew members or c) couldn't find any timely due to his personality drawbacks/ boat condition/money or all of the above.

We were willing to take any opportunity to get a chance to crew. I would say this still stands true. We were in WV in February, and we had the option to go to FL and sail. Of course we jumped on that. We are in the same situation now; stranded in WV, trying to get back to our own boat. But should any crew opportunity arise, we will try to get onboard.