Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: Who should look after you when a cleat brakes on the pontoon?
The marina where the cleat is? 23 82.14%
The owner of the boat who had no control over the integrity of the cleat? 4 14.29%
The cleat make sold 20 odd years ago 0 0%
You should not accept assistance of struggling boat owners. 1 3.57%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-06-2015, 09:59   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 15
Cleat failure who is responsible?

Cleat failure on marina, whose fault is it?

We all pay a lot for mooring of boats in marina(s) but when something happens in the marina that is outside of our control and outside of our responsibility such as the cleat that is on the dock fails under human loads (sweating by hand) who is responsible and Who must take the liability in case of injury.

for yachts:


https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...407/min176.pdf
__________________

__________________
Sheemgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 12:33   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Akron, Ohio
Boat: Bristol 29(1967)
Posts: 595
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Huh?

Can you explain the last three choices just a little bit?

ANYWAY ... I would generally say the marina owns the cleat and along with ownership comes responsibility.

But if the boater is aware that the cleat has been compromised somehow and says nothing to the marina ... then, I'm not so sure.
__________________

__________________
SURV69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 12:47   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 15
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Oh yes.

Ok the cleat no one knew about.

The wal.com cleat just failed under a bit of load but not enough to NOT be able to sweat ihe lifht bow in between two cleats on a floating pontoon. Rated for 1 tonne they break at 5-6, according to an engineer at Wal.com but 20 odd years...! Perhaps they need to be replaced more often.

I have come stern to into a dock used the same cleats and used mooring winches and engine assist and they dont just rip apart.

Basically if every cleat failed as easy as this cleat then we wouldn't tie our boats up using cleats.

Ps tough with using voice dictation to get the spelling right coupled with fat finger syndrome on phone.
__________________
Sheemgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 12:50   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Port Aransas, Texas
Boat: 2002 Seawind 1000 (33 ft) Cat
Posts: 838
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

I think if you are in a US marina, and look at the leasing agreement you signed, you will find that the marina is not legally responsible for any damage to your boat in any instance.
__________________
sailjumanji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 13:12   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 15
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Hi no boat damage but damage to crew of nearby yacht asked to help owner who was struggling to park his boat as a result of the cleat on the marina pontoon failing
__________________
Sheemgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 13:42   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Akron, Ohio
Boat: Bristol 29(1967)
Posts: 595
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Not legally responsible ... in any way?

really ... in any way?

Maybe a little like the disclaimer on the back of a sports ticket?



I think this comes under the category of what does the judge say?
__________________
SURV69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 14:26   #7
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,326
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

And that is why we have insurance. Your insurance hunts down the marina if they have been negligent. That said, a good marina will step-up. I've known Herrington Harbor to jump right in and pay for things without a word.

As an engineer, I can't imagine designing a cleat placement that was not strong enough to break any nylon/polyester rope attached to it. If someone ripped off a cleat with a Dyneema line I would feel differently, as they are not used for yacht mooring.

And yet I know damn well the cleats at my marina are no where close to that standard. I'm glad we are way up the creek.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 14:52   #8
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,663
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Sheemgal,

Pay the money and speak with a solicitor (UK) or a lawyer (US) if the injured crew is thinking of suit.

Generally speaking, with maritime law, blame is apportioned between the involved parties.

In the US, with civil law, it's (IMO) a crapshoot.

What I personally think is that the person who asked for the assistance is responsible if the helper was injured doing what the asker wanted. It was possibly a true accident where no one knew the cleat might fail, that no one was aware it was cracked. It is also possible someone had reported it to the marina. There are too many variables to reach a good decision, and discussing issues like this on the internet can leave an e-trail that works to the detriment of the injured party (or parties).

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 08:54   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Blue Mountain Ont
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 400 40 ft "Camp David
Posts: 401
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Why is everything somebody elses fault. I guess when I grew up we were told to be careful, to look around and be aware of possible danger and to remember that life happens while we make plans.

A way too many lawyers in this world that are not busy enough doing real work.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
CampDavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 08:59   #10
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,762
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

dock cleats are responsibility of marina, HOWEVER, it is YOUR responsibility to advise the marina of potential fail points, such as loose cleats and damages to dock ...
take pix if possible.
the old addage BUYER BEWARE goes double in renting marina space.
be smart--inspect everything and report to marina as the responsibility party for your boat is yourself...be aware.
if marina chooses not to repair loose cleats, then report to some higher agency-- owners of marina, as opposed to the manager.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 10:48   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Truckee, CA
Posts: 7
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

While interesting question, Not enough information to answer intelligently.
is the "pontoon", a boat of the dock, pier, wharf?

Not heard of a floating dock, referred to as a pontoon.
__________________
dbaoter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 11:00   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,373
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CampDavid View Post
Why is everything somebody elses fault. I guess when I grew up we were told to be careful, to look around and be aware of possible danger and to remember that life happens while we make plans.

A way too many lawyers in this world that are not busy enough doing real work.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
That all sounds good in theory, but what if you just purchased a brand new car and on the way home from the dealership the brakes fail and you smash into another car. What if you just purchased a new set of tires and on the way home one falls off and again you smash into another car?

You going to take responsibility for these or go back to the dealer and ask them to stand behind their work and product?
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 11:05   #13
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,373
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Regarding the original question, I agree there doesn't seem to be enough information. Also will very much depend on the laws of the place where the incident occurred.

In general

- a marina or any other business is responsible for the condition and safety of the equipment and premises, especially equipment that is directly involved in the business or service they provide, like a cleat at a marina where boats are expected to be tied up.

- That does not absolve the customers from all liability. For example if you were using a small cleat at the dinghy dock to tie up a 50' power boat and the cleat failed then obviously there would be liability on your part.

- if the cleat used was obviously intended for the purpose at hand and failed then one would think the liability would go back to the marina. If the cleat was defective then it would be between the marina and the manufacturer of the cleat to resolve.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 11:31   #14
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
What I personally think is that the person who asked for the assistance is responsible if the helper was injured doing what the asker wanted.
Bingo...
We go to the public pump out dock pretty much like clockwork every weekend and every time we approach the dock the tourists watching us come in always rush over to help and take a dock line. My entire crew knows to NEVER...EVER...hand them the line! We politely tell them to please stand back. They usually don't listen and insist on thinking they can be of help in pushing on a 55,000lb boat while holding their Starbucks coffee in one hand. It's not because I'm arrogant and think I'm an ace in docking our Hudson Force 50...but because I know unskilled "helpers" have a better chance of getting hurt than actually helping.
__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 13:11   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 77
Re: Cleat failure who is responsible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbaoter View Post
While interesting question, Not enough information to answer intelligently.
is the "pontoon", a boat of the dock, pier, wharf?

Not heard of a floating dock, referred to as a pontoon.
Unfortunately this is a symptom of the differences between the languages we like to call "English" on opposite sides of the Atlantic. To the inhabitants of the British Isles a pontoon is a floating component of a marina, whereas docks and quays are generally made of stone. Piers while originally made of stone , (the word "pier" is French for "stone"!), can sometimes be also made of wood, as can wharfs.
To us, a "floating dock" is something which, when filled with water a boat or ship can be sailed into. It is then closed and the water pumped out so that the bottom of the ship can be worked on.
A "slip" is a ramp which is used for launching boats on trailers.
I am constantly amused by the term "bottom paint" to refer to what we call "antifouling". Whenever I come across it I can visualise the person painting their ass (we say arse!), blue
__________________

__________________
SpiritofGlenans is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure autumnbreeze27 Monohull Sailboats 550 11-04-2016 22:17



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.