Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

[rognvald]

To many of us who have traveled widely outside our naturalized countries, would the complexity of this act change if the laws of the country you are visiting are/may be contrary to the laws of your country? Would you be willing, then, to take the chance?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

It has its funny side looking back..
Silly sod came down to the boat as we were tying up and casting off the Lifeboat.. and when he came out with that the CG officer and the Harbourmaster had to physically hold me back Ahahahahahahhaaaa...!!
And.. not only did they rescue me.. prevent a GBH charge.. they caught the bazturd who'd rammed me and run on top..
Salcombe Rock's ..

I've heard this story a few times over the years, but never heard this part --

do you mean to say that they caught him RUN AGROUND on the rocks at Salcombe?

Did they lay charges?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rognvald

To many of us who have traveled widely outside our naturalized countries, would the complexity of this act change if the laws of the country you are visiting are/may be contrary to the laws of your country? Would you be willing, then, to take the chance?

Watch and do what other people do. If other people are going on to other people's decks for legitimate purposes like tying off loose halyards, then it's a pretty good bet it's not prohibited by law.

In places where people have more experience with the sea, no one considers your boat's deck to be an inviolable space like your living room at home. People raft up and tromp over your foredeck, for example.

You should always ask permission if the owner is on board, unless you're rafted up, in which case don't disturb him.

In places where people have less experience with the sea, and you have lots of land people with their first boats, you will find that some of these people think that going on to another boat's deck is something like trespassing, something outrageous. These are the same people who absolutely hate it when someone rafts up to them.

Getting back to the law -- in fact it's not trespassing per se to go onto another boat's deck without any bad purpose, anywhere I know about. Some countries or states recognize your boat's deck as a "premises", and you have the right to post a "no trespassing" sign, and you have the right to order someone to go away, but nowhere I have seen is this automatic, and in many places it's not trespassing under any circumstances, as a boat's deck is just not considered land or premises.


Someone above suggested that he might use violence against someone he found on his deck, even for a legitimate purpose. People should be aware that although you may be allowed to use violence in some places against a stranger inside your house, no such right applies on the deck of a boat anywhere in the world that I know of. Prepare to go to prison for such behavior.


The Ordinary Practice of Seamen is pretty relaxed about going onto other boat's decks in case of real necessity. Ask permission if someone is aboard. Stay out of people's lockers, don't touch the gear, don't linger, and don't do it at all except in case of real necessity. Don't do harm or leave a mess. Stay away from the cockpit end of the boat unless it's unavoidable.

"Real necessity" would include, for example, things like:

* grabbing hold of another boat drifting by unmanned.
* fending off a boat which is out of control
* gaining access to a person who has fallen overboard in the marina
* securing a boat which is breaking loose from her moorings
* protecting life or property in other ways
and, yes * securing loose halyards which are keeping half the marina awake

[exMaggieDrum]

I haven't read through the long thread here so my apologies if this has been said several times. I always leave a couple of lines in the cockpit or on the rails that could be used to set new dock lines if needed. I would hope that someone would board my board and set a new dock line if needed. I have had a friend wrap my mainsail cover once and was very grateful as it would have shredded itself otherwise.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Watch and do what other people do. If other people are going on to other people's decks for legitimate purposes like tying off loose halyards, then it's a pretty good bet it's not prohibited by law.

In places where people have more experience with the sea, no one considers your boat's deck to be an inviolable space like your living room at home. People raft up and tromp over your foredeck, for example.

You should always ask permission if the owner is on board, unless you're rafted up, in which case don't disturb him.

In places where people have less experience with the sea, and you have lots of land people with their first boats, you will find that some of these people think that going on to another boat's deck is something like trespassing, something outrageous. These are the same people who absolutely hate it when someone rafts up to them.

Getting back to the law -- in fact it's not trespassing per se to go onto another boat's deck without any bad purpose, anywhere I know about. Some countries or states recognize your boat's deck as a "premises", and you have the right to post a "no trespassing" sign, and you have the right to order someone to go away, but nowhere I have seen is this automatic, and in many places it's not trespassing under any circumstances, as a boat's deck is just not considered land or premises.


Someone above suggested that he might use violence against someone he found on his deck, even for a legitimate purpose. People should be aware that although you may be allowed to use violence in some places against a stranger inside your house, no such right applies on the deck of a boat anywhere in the world that I know of. Prepare to go to prison for such behavior.


The Ordinary Practice of Seamen is pretty relaxed about going onto other boat's decks in case of real necessity. Ask permission if someone is aboard. Stay out of people's lockers, don't touch the gear, don't linger, and don't do it at all except in case of real necessity. Don't do harm or leave a mess. Stay away from the cockpit end of the boat unless it's unavoidable.

"Real necessity" would include, for example, things like:

* grabbing hold of another boat drifting by unmanned.
* fending off a boat which is out of control
* gaining access to a person who has fallen overboard in the marina
* securing a boat which is breaking loose from her moorings
* protecting life or property in other ways
and, yes * securing loose halyards which are keeping half the marina awake

Dockhead,
Well-stated and very good advice! . . . and free! Whew! Good luck and safe sailing.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've heard this story a few times over the years, but never heard this part --

do you mean to say that they caught him RUN AGROUND on the rocks at Salcombe?

Did they lay charges?

No..!! "Salcombe Rock's"

No.. he had tried sneaking in after dark.. mind.. the CG had an all ports alert for the boat so he'd have been copped anyway..
and seeing he'd rammed me around 1745 on a summers day and the distance from Start Point to Salcombe.. he likely figured the Brixham boat would come for me.. its obvious after hitting me he ran back out to sea and waited before coming in with the fading light..
when fronted he fessed up and the CG and HM made sure I got all the right papers, ID's etc..

[sailorboy1]

I hope that if one on my boating neighbors sees a problem with my boat they go aboard and do something. Since I keep my boat on a mooring that is one of the reasons I leave the key in the ignition.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Too true about the laws.

Physical damage? He wasn't there.

Mental - yup he sure was, 'cuz he was too stupid to tie his boat up so you had to help his boat to begin with!

Don't split hairs. I left out to my clients vessel.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I am constantly surprised by the number people who assume that physical violence is legally permitted in the protection of property. Throwing someone you found looking in your cockpit lockers off your boat is assault and battery. Even if proved, trespass is a misdemeanor. Assault and battery is normally a felony.
.

Clearly never taken a CWP class. Remember to keep saying: I thought my life was in danger.

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

This is a much more tricky issue than one might believe.

I am constantly torn over this conflict. I have taken steps to attempt to save someone's boat, knowing full well, that I could get in trouble over it. I am willing to take that risk.

However, I will not board someone else's boat to silence halyards, as that is clearly trespassing solely for my benefit.

It is the nature of many people (myself included), to offer help unsolicited.

Notwithstanding, boarding a boat without permission is trespassing.

Nobody has any right to board anyone's boat without permission.

If you board someone's boat, you could get shot, if they mistake you for an intruder. Fortunately, we don't have many boaters packin' heat at our marina, or I'd likely have holes. ;-)

When I leave my boat, I tie off my halyards (usually).

If I am sleeping on my boat, I may leave them untied.

First, I enjoy the sound of lightly slapping halyards, as I do wind chimes.

Second, I use them as a wake-up alarm that the wind has picked up, so I should check the lines and fenders.

When a slip neighbour mentions my halyards were noisy, I politely explain my reasons, and that is usually that.

They actually have no god given right to absolute silence.

Minor halyard slap is a far cry from imminent risk of damage; it would generally take quite some time in very high winds. In the kind of wind that would cause rapid damage, nobody is gonna be sleepin' anyway.

In many cases, I don't believe boarding someone's boat to prevent halyard slap is for the noble purpose of helping the owner. It is more likely solely for the boarders own personal comfort.

Another, non-invasive solution without boarding someone's boat without permission, is to put in ear plugs. Or if one doesn't like the sounds of boats in a marina, they can choose to be somewhere, or do something, else.

Even the best of intentions can go wrong.

If one adjusts lines because a boat is bumping a dock and that boat comes loose in the night, (or is left hanging at low tide) then the question is whether it damaged because they touched it and did something wrong.

All I can say is, nobody is welcome to board my boat to prevent halyard slap.

I would be appreciative if they fixed a problem that would cause imminent damage, as long as they did it right and didn't cause even more damage.

Once I was launching a boat on a steep ramp. I backed to the crest of the ramp and stopped. I had already removed the security chain on the bow eye.

A fellow I knew who was watching, hollered forward that we would trip my winch lock, AS HE DID IT!.

My boat then slid off the trailer and skidded down the concrete ramp into the water to the end of my winch strap.

I was very upset, and questioned why he did that without ask permission to mess with my property first, and give me the opportunity to say NOOOO!

When we first started boating we had a few occasions while docking, where strangers (and even friends unfamiliar with our docking procedures) offered to take docklines, who have caused way more harm than help.

We have had "The Docking Talk", with our slip neighbours, who now know what to do to "help us" when we come in to our regular slip.

When we come up to a dock and a stranger offers to take a line, we ask them to stand clear, up forward and "fend off the boat" if it comes too close to the dock. They feel like they are helping, and we don't have somebody pull a boner that hurts rather than helps.

Ramblin Rod
Marine Service Provider
About Sheen Marine

Ear plugs? Go somewhere else? Simply because you seem to believe that slapping halyards is a personal right?

I certainly hope never to have you as a neighbor...

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well, it could easily be argued that if one doesn't like the sound of boats and docks creaking, and wind whistling through shrouds and slapping halyards, maybe they should pick a different pastime.

It's a boat.

Geesh.

It could also easily be argued that if you don't care for the sound of a vigilante committee forming around your slapping halyards, you could either anchor out by yourself, find another marina, or better yet learn how to have consideration for the others you share space with...

[hellosailor]

"I believe a vessel is sovereign territory. "
Where do people come up with these ideas? You've been grossly misinformed. The only thing that is sovereign territory, is the actual property of the king, the sovereign.
And since the Royal Family sold Britannia, the royal yacht, there's not so many of those left in the world either.
Military vessel? Check. Belongs to the military, who belong to the sovereign. So that's sovereign property. Private owner? See "The Mouse that Roared".


Under most laws, in most venues, if you touch something that belongs to someone else, you are now responsible for it. You tightened the lines, they came loose ten hours later, all the damage is your fault. That's what the lawyers will tell the judge.


Now in some venues there are "Good Samaritan" laws, that offer varying protections. You'll have to learn if any apply to you where you are. And in others (pretty much every US state except Florida) there are also militia laws, under which you may be bound to "protect the domestic tranquility" whether you're on active service or not. Mention that to a judge and he's going to do a face-palm go looking for his mommy.


So by all means...touch that line. In a perfect world, your neighbor will leave a crate of good champagne and a thank-you note the next morning.

[estarzinger]

Interesting that this thread has such legs. In practice in actual situations I have always thought it was pretty clear what to do when.

I have adjusted people's dock lines and added lines and added (or moved) fenders quite frequently - but only in cases where I thought there was an obvious concern and potential for damage.

I have also put lines on other boats as they dragged by us, and tied them astern of our boat until the owners came back.

I have not tied other people's halyards just because they are noisy, I just live with that - but I have tie halyards on boats where I know the owner is going to be away for a long time and the halyards seem like they might damage either themselves or some hardware (like deck/steaming lights) by banging away a long time.

The most 'invasive' thing I ever did . . . we were anchored in one of the Vancouver island harbors and two boats in front of us a steel boat started slowly dragging at anchor (in very little wind). I jumped in the dinghy and when up to the boat in front of us (who would have been hit first) and told them I left it up to them what we would do but I was happy to help and happy to just run out one of our spare rodes and spare anchors on the boat. He was delighted for offer because he had not been sure what he was going to do by himself, but he wanted a more permanent solution than our anchor because he was not sure if the dragging boat's owner would come back before we wanted to leave. So, his suggestion was to to tie our two dinghies either side of his boat, and drive it forward with our outboards and have beth on they deck pulling up their anchor and drive it further forward and drop and properly set the anchor with more scope. We did that, but for a couple reasons, it was a bit trickier than we had imagined and the boat almost got away from us, and I learned a lesson that if I were going to do it again, I would have run out our spare anchor on a full length (100m) of rode so that the boat would have been properly and securely anchored thru-out the operation. But in any case, a couple days later, the owner of the boat came by and thanked us sincerely and gave us two bottles of very good wine for our efforts.

I think we definitely did the right thing 'saving' this boat, and the owner agreed, but I learned the lesson that you really need to think out the operation and take every care you can possibly think of to make sure nothing goes wrong. . . . yea, that sounds like common sense and on the one hand really it is, but on the other hand you really really want to go overboard in taking 'due care' and not just jump in and 'do it' as you might with your own boat.

Note: as an aside, when we pulled up this guys anchor it was obvious why he was dragging. He had obviously dropped his chain in a big pile right on top of the anchor and big bights of it were was coiled around and snagged on the anchor. You really need to be moving backwards as you lay out your chain.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

. . . Under most laws, in most venues, if you touch something that belongs to someone else, you are now responsible for it. You tightened the lines, they came loose ten hours later, all the damage is your fault. That's what the lawyers will tell the judge.


Now in some venues there are "Good Samaritan" laws, that offer varying protections. You'll have to learn if any apply to you where you are. And in others (pretty much every US state except Florida) there are also militia laws, under which you may be bound to "protect the domestic tranquility" whether you're on active service or not. Mention that to a judge and he's going to do a face-palm go looking for his mommy.


So by all means...touch that line. In a perfect world, your neighbor will leave a crate of good champagne and a thank-you note the next morning.

It is definitely true that you risk liability by helping someone in the way we've been discussing. That's kind of a given, and what we have been discussing for a number of pages by now.

So I guess what is implied by the last part of your post, "In a perfect world . . ." is "But in the imperfect world we actually live in, I will watch as your boat breaks free from her moorings/flogs her jib to shreds/etc. and not lift a finger to prevent it, because I'm afraid I could get sued if something goes wrong later."

Did I get it right?

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

because I'm afraid I could get sued if something goes wrong later."

It is interesting . . . . at GE it was drilled into me 'always do the right thing. Never don't do the right thing because you are afraid of being sued'. That's contrary to what many represent as the american and corporate attitude. I don't know if it was unique to GE, or to companies with huge and skilled legal departments who can defend themselves.

I will say that various people and companies have threatened to sue me personally for things I have written and said (and once for things I did not write), and my attitude and response has always been 'I did the right thing, I spoke the truth, go ahead and sue me if you want, but you will lose and it will hurt your business'. They have all backed off after that. That's a bit different than what we are talking about here . . . but I try to always do the right thing - follow the golden rule. . . and if I get sued I will crush them in court. (note: in maritime law my understanding is that you not only have a right to protect another vessel from serious damage, but you in fact have a right to demand compensation for it)