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Old 11-02-2016, 13:23   #106
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
It is interesting . . . . at GE it was drilled into me 'always do the right thing. Never don't do the right thing because you are afraid of being sued'. That's contrary to what many represent as the american and corporate attitude. I don't know if it was unique to GE, or to companies with huge and skilled legal departments who can defend themselves.

I will say that various people and companies have threatened to sue me personally for things I have written and said (and once for things I did not write), and my attitude and response has always been 'I did the right thing, I spoke the truth, go ahead and sue me if you want, but you will lose and it will hurt your business'. They have all backed off after that. That's a bit different than what we are talking about here . . . but I try to always do the right thing - follow the golden rule. . . and if I get sued I will crush them in court. (note: in maritime law my understanding is that you not only have a right to protect another vessel from serious damage, but you in fact have a right to demand compensation for it)


That sounds like the Jack Welch style of GE values.

I completely agree.

And in this situation, failing to do the right thing because there is some risk to you sounds just bizarre to me. What kind of willingness to help others is it, if it is only if there is no risk or cost to yourself.

Imagine a child is drowning, and you hesitate to jump in to help him, because you realize that you risk pneumonia from the cold water. In my opinion, you aren't even really doing much when someone (or their boat) is in trouble, if there is zero risk or cost to yourself.


Concerning maritime law, you are exactly correct.

It is also true, however, that if you make a mistake while trying to help someone at sea (fail to fulfill certain duties of care etc.), you are responsible for the damages (it's not quite that simple; there are various elements and exceptions, but that's a reasonably fair simplified summary).

So what? That never bothered me. I think it's even reasonable. One reason why I have insurance. But even without insurance, these considerations would not stop me from doing the right thing.
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Old 11-02-2016, 13:36   #107
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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...The most 'invasive' thing I ever did . . . we were anchored in one of the Vancouver island harbors and two boats in front of us a steel boat started slowly dragging at anchor (in very little wind). I jumped in the dinghy and when up to the boat in front of us (who would have been hit first) and told them I left it up to them what we would do but I was happy to help and happy to just run out one of our spare rodes and spare anchors on the boat. He was delighted for offer because he had not been sure what he was going to do by himself, but he wanted a more permanent solution than our anchor because he was not sure if the dragging boat's owner would come back before we wanted to leave. So, his suggestion was to to tie our two dinghies either side of his boat, and drive it forward with our outboards and have beth on they deck pulling up their anchor and drive it further forward and drop and properly set the anchor with more scope. We did that, but for a couple reasons, it was a bit trickier than we had imagined and the boat almost got away from us, and I learned a lesson that if I were going to do it again, I would have run out our spare anchor on a full length (100m) of rode so that the boat would have been properly and securely anchored thru-out the operation. But in any case, a couple days later, the owner of the boat came by and thanked us sincerely and gave us two bottles of very good wine for our efforts.

I think we definitely did the right thing 'saving' this boat, and the owner agreed, but I learned the lesson that you really need to think out the operation and take every care you can possibly think of to make sure nothing goes wrong. . . . yea, that sounds like common sense and on the one hand really it is, but on the other hand you really really want to go overboard in taking 'due care' and not just jump in and 'do it' as you might with your own boat.

Note: as an aside, when we pulled up this guys anchor it was obvious why he was dragging. He had obviously dropped his chain in a big pile right on top of the anchor and big bights of it were was coiled around and snagged on the anchor. You really need to be moving backwards as you lay out your chain.
Great story.
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Old 11-02-2016, 14:03   #108
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Interesting that this thread has such legs. In practice in actual situations I have always thought it was pretty clear what to do when.

I have adjusted people's dock lines and added lines and added (or moved) fenders quite frequently - but only in cases where I thought there was an obvious concern and potential for damage.

I have also put lines on other boats as they dragged by us, and tied them astern of our boat until the owners came back.

I have not tied other people's halyards just because they are noisy, I just live with that - but I have tie halyards on boats where I know the owner is going to be away for a long time and the halyards seem like they might damage either themselves or some hardware (like deck/steaming lights) by banging away a long time.

The most 'invasive' thing I ever did . . . we were anchored in one of the Vancouver island harbors and two boats in front of us a steel boat started slowly dragging at anchor (in very little wind). I jumped in the dinghy and when up to the boat in front of us (who would have been hit first) and told them I left it up to them what we would do but I was happy to help and happy to just run out one of our spare rodes and spare anchors on the boat. He was delighted for offer because he had not been sure what he was going to do by himself, but he wanted a more permanent solution than our anchor because he was not sure if the dragging boat's owner would come back before we wanted to leave. So, his suggestion was to to tie our two dinghies either side of his boat, and drive it forward with our outboards and have beth on they deck pulling up their anchor and drive it further forward and drop and properly set the anchor with more scope. We did that, but for a couple reasons, it was a bit trickier than we had imagined and the boat almost got away from us, and I learned a lesson that if I were going to do it again, I would have run out our spare anchor on a full length (100m) of rode so that the boat would have been properly and securely anchored thru-out the operation. But in any case, a couple days later, the owner of the boat came by and thanked us sincerely and gave us two bottles of very good wine for our efforts.

I think we definitely did the right thing 'saving' this boat, and the owner agreed, but I learned the lesson that you really need to think out the operation and take every care you can possibly think of to make sure nothing goes wrong. . . . yea, that sounds like common sense and on the one hand really it is, but on the other hand you really really want to go overboard in taking 'due care' and not just jump in and 'do it' as you might with your own boat.

Note: as an aside, when we pulled up this guys anchor it was obvious why he was dragging. He had obviously dropped his chain in a big pile right on top of the anchor and big bights of it were was coiled around and snagged on the anchor. You really need to be moving backwards as you lay out your chain.
GREAT POST, EVANS. Thank you very much.

Ann
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Old 11-02-2016, 16:56   #109
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
When I leave my boat, I tie off my halyards (usually). If I am sleeping on my boat, I may leave them untied.

First, I enjoy the sound of lightly slapping halyards, as I do wind chimes.

Second, I use them as a wake-up alarm that the wind has picked up, so I should check the lines and fenders.

When a slip neighbour mentions my halyards were noisy, I politely explain my reasons, and that is usually that.

They actually have no god given right to absolute silence.

Another, non-invasive solution without boarding someone's boat without permission, is to put in ear plugs. Or if one doesn't like the sounds of boats in a marina, they can choose to be somewhere, or do something, else.

All I can say is, nobody is welcome to board my boat to prevent halyard slap.

Ramblin Rod
What works for us: Wind chimes hanging below decks. If the winds start rising to be a point of concern then the boat starts dancing, which in turn sets the wind chimes all a' tremble which in turn awakens me.

No noise problems for the neighbors; no wear & tear on the boat's gear.

Something to at least consider, no?


Edit: Same reasoning applies when somebody's wake sets us dancing - sound of wind chimes means get up and check the lines.
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Old 11-02-2016, 17:03   #110
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Ear plugs? Go somewhere else? Simply because you seem to believe that slapping halyards is a personal right?

I certainly hope never to have you as a neighbor...
Ahem, adjusting my halyards as I see prudently fit is my right.

On a quiet night, I will purposefully not tie my halyards back, so that if the wind picks up, it will wake and alert me to check my lines and fenders. While I'm at it, I 'll probably check my slip neighbours as well if I see something unusual.

I likely do more in a year help fellow boaters THAT NEED IT, without any expectation or desire for compensation in any way, than most here will do in a lifetime.

If some self-righteous, jerk has boarded my boat without permission and tied off my halyards because they are annoyed at the sound a boat makes in wind, we will have words, and I will be doubly glad that no such jerk is my neighbour.

PS, one of our rules aboard is to always make the boat ready to get underway at a moments notice, in case we, or someone else needs it.

If some idiot has altered my boat in anyway, unbeknownst to me, so that I am hampered to raise sail and get under way in a pitching black sea, they WILL answer for it.
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Old 11-02-2016, 17:23   #111
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Ahem, adjusting my halyards as I see prudently fit is my right.

On a quiet night, I will purposefully not tie my halyards back, so that if the wind picks up, it will wake and alert me to check my lines and fenders. While I'm at it, I 'll probably check my slip neighbours as well if I see something unusual.

I likely do more in a year help fellow boaters THAT NEED IT, without any expectation or desire for compensation in any way, than most here will do in a lifetime.

If some self-righteous, jerk has boarded my boat without permission and tied off my halyards because they are annoyed at the sound a boat makes in wind, we will have words, and I will be doubly glad that no such jerk is my neighbour.

PS, one of our rules aboard is to always make the boat ready to get underway at a moments notice, in case we, or someone else needs it.

If some idiot has altered my boat in anyway, unbeknownst to me, so that I am hampered to raise sail and get under way in a pitching black sea, they WILL answer for it.
So, rather than admit that you could reconsider your ideas about being an
annoying neighbor, you resort to name calling?

I'm not going to engage in an endless debate, but I see little, if any, correlation with slapping halyards and "hampered to raise sail and get under weigh in pitching black sea"...if I were you I would find another marina...one not open to pitching black seas and rogue waves; let alone folks that just want to be able to sleep. To try and defend slapping halyards as a means to be ready for survival conditions is ludicrous.

And no need for anyone to post the popcorn emoticon...we're done here. :]
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Old 11-02-2016, 17:25   #112
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Ahem, adjusting my halyards as I see prudently fit is my right.

On a quiet night, I will purposefully not tie my halyards back, so that if the wind picks up, it will wake and alert me to check my lines and fenders. While I'm at it, I 'll probably check my slip neighbours as well if I see something unusual.

I likely do more in a year help fellow boaters THAT NEED IT, without any expectation or desire for compensation in any way, than most here will do in a lifetime.

If some self-righteous, jerk has boarded my boat without permission and tied off my halyards because they are annoyed at the sound a boat makes in wind, we will have words, and I will be doubly glad that no such jerk is my neighbour.

PS, one of our rules aboard is to always make the boat ready to get underway at a moments notice, in case we, or someone else needs it.

If some idiot has altered my boat in anyway, unbeknownst to me, so that I am hampered to raise sail and get under way in a pitching black sea, they WILL answer for it.
Oh, and one last thing, I have found that the motion of the boat is a much more effective indicator of upcoming survival conditions than the slapping of halyards...
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Old 11-02-2016, 17:42   #113
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Oh, and one last thing, I have found that the motion of the boat is a much more effective indicator of upcoming survival conditions than the slapping of halyards...
^ This. ^


Also, see post #109.
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Old 11-02-2016, 20:13   #114
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Originally Posted by morven55 View Post
So, rather than admit that you could reconsider your ideas about being an
annoying neighbor, you resort to name calling?

I'm not going to engage in an endless debate, but I see little, if any, correlation with slapping halyards and "hampered to raise sail and get under weigh in pitching black sea"...if I were you I would find another marina...one not open to pitching black seas and rogue waves; let alone folks that just want to be able to sleep. To try and defend slapping halyards as a means to be ready for survival conditions is ludicrous.

And no need for anyone to post the popcorn emoticon...we're done here. :]
IMHO, anyone who boards a boat and ties off someone's halyards, is most likely a self-righteous jerk, more worried about their comfort than the privacy of someone else's property.

Again, to help a neighbour is almost always a good thing, but to mess with their stuff without permission because it's making a sound you don't care for, is NOT COOL. Maybe the issue is not their seamanship but your being overly sensitive to natural sounds in a marina.

The correlation - it was mentioned at least once in this thread that someone resorts to progressive tying off, with each occurrence, apparently trying to teach a lesson. This is neighbourly. NOT.

At our marina, the basin is quite protected. The wind in the marina does not represent the wind on the lake, only a few hundred yards through a narrow channel. On exiting the channel to the lake, the water can go from flat to very rough. If I ever got out their (perhaps to assist another boat in an emergency) and some JERK had tied knots in my halyards, well, it would be a good way to get bloody, if I ever found out who did it.

If you are annoyed with someone's halyards, IMHO the correct thing to do is to grin and bear it, and mention it to the boater the next time you see them.

If they apologize, and change their behaviour because they didn't know any better, that's fine, all is well.

But if they don't wish to, and have a reason for not tying them off, whether you agree with them or not, matter's not, you have no right to board their boat to tie them off. PERIOD!
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Old 11-02-2016, 20:23   #115
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

It's easy ... do the right thing
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Old 20-02-2016, 13:42   #116
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

I think I see a consensus here albeit foggy.

For minor annoyances such as slapping halyards I have NEVER boarded another boat, nor will I.

At the marina I have discussed the issue of boarding to fix a problem that endangers their boat or someone else's boat. Although everyone has given verbal permission you never know. Personally I'd rather take the chance of accidental damage vs certain damage. Everyone I know has carte Blanche to board my boat to fix a problem. Usually they will follow up with a call.

At an anchorage I will do what I feel I must to protect a boat. To hell with lawsuits.

Besides can't I claim salvage? 🤑


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Old 20-02-2016, 14:16   #117
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
I think I see a consensus here albeit foggy.

For minor annoyances such as slapping halyards I have NEVER boarded another boat, nor will I.

At the marina I have discussed the issue of boarding to fix a problem that endangers their boat or someone else's boat. Although everyone has given verbal permission you never know. Personally I'd rather take the chance of accidental damage vs certain damage. Everyone I know has carte Blanche to board my boat to fix a problem. Usually they will follow up with a call.

At an anchorage I will do what I feel I must to protect a boat. To hell with lawsuits.

Those that have nothing to prove don't flaunt it.

Besides can't I claim salvage? ��


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I'd go on if I knew them or if they walked around in a ratty old T-shirt and cut offs. If they had the Captains hat and sport coat not a chance. I'll bet the guy in the ratty T-**** would appreciate it and may be able to buy the marina with chump change and the other is a near do well that would sue.

Those that have it don't flaunt it.

Just my opinion after years on the dock.
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Old 20-02-2016, 14:55   #118
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

cabo-
Such a shame you are in Florida, the only state in the US that has never had a State Militia. In the real United States, you could check your state military and militia laws (often from the state constitution) and find out that if you are an "able bodied male citizen" you are required by law to "maintain the domestic tranquility" or some similar obligation.
If you claim you boarded a boat in order to fulfill that active duty (which exists whether you are on active duty or not) you might hear the judge call for a recess and ametting in closed chambers...and then watch him sobbing and asking "Why me?! Why me?!" because absolutely no one wants to touch these obscure but still standing laws, that mandate actions.
Florida, somehow, coming from Spain, has no state militia. When the US formed the National Guard, in order to "regulate" the militias, they had to pass special legislation to form a Florida Guard, since there was no militia to put into the national program.
Still, it might be one step closer to US norms, compared to being in a war prize like Puerto Rico. Or Guam.
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Old 20-02-2016, 15:00   #119
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

hellosailor,

Seems a mite unlikely. Isn't maintaining domestic tranquility more with forwarding commerce? Certainly it isn't invoked with marital disputes.

Ah, well.

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Old 20-02-2016, 15:05   #120
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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I would help out any of my marina mates any time and have done so. They have done as much for us. I always leave extra dock lines out and available for our boat or for anyone to borrow in a pinch & we have pointed this out the neighbors. We also keep a De-Fib on board accessible by retriever line from the galley hatch. This is also known to the local boaters. Old School, I sill hold the door for a lady or anyone else with an arm-load.
I think I want to stand you to a beer. Or Scotch if you prefer.
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