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Old 28-02-2016, 20:04   #136
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

Stay off my boat!!! Just kidding.

Put me in the, won't hesitate to take action camp.

In the past I have secured furled head sails, replaced broken dock lines, added spring lines, adjusted fenders, secured dinghies, and boarded a burning boat to remove dock lines and helped tow it out of the marina. We beached it just as the tow line burned free and watched it burn to the waterline.

Won't hesitate to act again. Ain't worried about getting sued as there is nothing in it for the suer, suewee, whatever.

Halyards don't bother me, though.
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Old 28-02-2016, 20:50   #137
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

Tacoma-
"Who makes up those stories? "
Ah, YOU just did. I said someone COULD be sued, you turned that around and said there are stories about people being sued.


People sue people over all sorts of things, all the time. Insurers will gladly sue people to see if it helps put the blame on someone else.


I do know of lawsuits, and victims, some who get sucked in by a tar baby, others who got the suits dismissed (at significant cost) who should never have been sured, because they didn't do anything wrong.


I also know of many ex-volunteers, who did volunteer work as disaster responders and similar work (for accredited organizations) who dropped out after finding out about similar suits against other workers. That's actually a big problem, despite state "good Samaritan" laws, which don't offer much protection.


There's all sorts of crazies in the world. All sorts of documented lawsuits between 'best friends' after something simple went wrong, like a slip on a snowy front doorstep.


It is very easy to say there's no such thing, until you wind up with a five-figure legal defense bill after getting sucked into one. Don't mistake your own limited experiences as being the sum total of what's possible in the entire world. I've never met anyone who had a yard long worm crawl out of a sore in their foot. But in parts of Africa? Happens. Documented. And by now, ALMOST eradicated, but still very real, even if I don't know anyone that has had it happen to them.
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Old 29-02-2016, 07:11   #138
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Tacoma-
"Who makes up those stories? "
Ah, YOU just did. I said someone COULD be sued, you turned that around and said there are stories about people being sued.


People sue people over all sorts of things, all the time. Insurers will gladly sue people to see if it helps put the blame on someone else.


I do know of lawsuits, and victims, some who get sucked in by a tar baby, others who got the suits dismissed (at significant cost) who should never have been sured, because they didn't do anything wrong.


I also know of many ex-volunteers, who did volunteer work as disaster responders and similar work (for accredited organizations) who dropped out after finding out about similar suits against other workers. That's actually a big problem, despite state "good Samaritan" laws, which don't offer much protection.


There's all sorts of crazies in the world. All sorts of documented lawsuits between 'best friends' after something simple went wrong, like a slip on a snowy front doorstep.


It is very easy to say there's no such thing, until you wind up with a five-figure legal defense bill after getting sucked into one. Don't mistake your own limited experiences as being the sum total of what's possible in the entire world. I've never met anyone who had a yard long worm crawl out of a sore in their foot. But in parts of Africa? Happens. Documented. And by now, ALMOST eradicated, but still very real, even if I don't know anyone that has had it happen to them.
OK, so you mean to say, that you would stand by and watch your neighbor's boat break loose of her moorings and drift off onto the rocks, because of the slight chance of a lawsuit, in case you retie her wrong? Or stand by and watch his $10,000 jib flog itself to shreds, because you're afraid to step on board to refurl and secure it?

Really?

It seems to me very much like standing by and watching a child drown, because if you jump in to save him, you could possibly get pneumonia from the cold water.

The very essence of helping someone, is bearing some cost or taking some risk, to do it. What kind of help is it, if there's no cost, risk, or trouble involved?

It is true that this is somewhat easy for me to say, because I have nearly $10 million of liability insurance, and also, I'm a lawyer. But I would like to think that not having either of these things, would not change my behavior, not one iota. Just like I would never think about the pneumonia, if a child were drowning nearby. Yes, I might get pneumonia and might even die from it. So what? If a person needs saving.
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Old 29-02-2016, 09:18   #139
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

Is there not a liability risk of failing to take action? If one is a knowledgeable sailor and is aware that a neighbors boat is not properly secured and one does nothing to prevent the loss is there not some culpability?


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Old 29-02-2016, 09:46   #140
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Is there not a liability risk of failing to take action? If one is a knowledgeable sailor and is aware that a neighbors boat is not properly secured and one does nothing to prevent the loss is there not some culpability?


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Common sense would say yes, but the law (in common law countries) says generally that there is no duty to save another person's property (or even another person) unless either you caused the peril, or you have some relationship of care with respect to that property or person (like an employer, parent, hired captain, etc.). Naturally, there are some exceptions.

The country I know where there is an obligation to help others in danger is Germany, where it's a crime to fail to do so. And in Germany you are obligated to carry a first aid kit in a car, and to know first aid in order to have a driver's license, so you'd better be johnny on the spot if you happen to be close by when someone is injured in a car accident.

But that's just people -- not property.

At sea, of course, there IS a duty to render assistance to mariners in distress. I can't say for sure because it's not my field, but I don't think that this extends to vessels with no one on board.

You might have a salvage claim, of course, if you save a vessel from breaking free from her moorings, if you were cad enough to press such a claim.
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Old 29-02-2016, 09:50   #141
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

Then I guess, like so many other thing, it is a question of ethics not legality. It seems many people have more trouble with ethics these days. What ever happened to "do the right thing?"


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Old 29-02-2016, 09:54   #142
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Originally Posted by Tayana42 View Post
Is there not a liability risk of failing to take action? If one is a knowledgeable sailor and is aware that a neighbors boat is not properly secured and one does nothing to prevent the loss is there not some culpability?


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No! Only you ruing about it. It goes back to not being your brothers keeper legally. I do however agree, act if you see a problem. Someone made the comment tell the dock master. In a marina, makes sense to me.
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Old 29-02-2016, 10:12   #143
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Then I guess, like so many other thing, it is a question of ethics not legality. It seems many people have more trouble with ethics these days. What ever happened to "do the right thing?"


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Amen

And sometimes it costs something to do the right thing.

It doesn't mean much, to say that you will do the right thing, but only if there's no risk to yourself.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:36   #144
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

Dockhead, it depends on the neighbor. And the child. There are some (of both) that I would gladly ask to stop screaming and just let go, if they were on the side of a cliff and trying to hold on.


I'd be more likely to help the humans than to go after the boat, but again, it would depend on circumstances.


It's like administering CPR. Once you start, you're obligated to keep on doing it, even if that means for two hours, until the person either revives or is transferred to professional care. In the US there are dual standards for that as well. If you're a "professional" who has received traditional "breath and bang" training, you have to apply both or else you are negligent by law. If you're a non-professional and have just been certified in the newer "compressions only" CPR, then you don't have to give breaths. If you're a Red Cross or other trained disaster responder, you can't apply a tourniquet because that's beyond your training, even if it is necessary and proven to save lives, and taught by the US military with 50 years of experience proving it works. There have been similar cases in the national nooze (maybe 5 years ago) regarding a responder pulling an injured person out of a car wreck, causing spinal damage. Well, no, they had been taught not to move the victim. But they thought the car might explode, so moving the victim (contrary to their training) seemed like the right thing to do. Ooops. The victim's lawyers said that didn't matter, it was contrary to the training.


That's nothing to do with ethics or morality, that's called "I can't afford a fifty million dollar lawsuit and the streets are filled with crazies." Ethics? Have to consider who you are dealing with.


Remember the parable about the lion and the scorpion? Scorpion asks the lion to help him swim across the rising creek, or else he'll die. Lion says "But you'll sting me and then I'll die." Scorpion says "Oh, no, I'd be forever grateful, I promise." And then stings the lion once they get across the creek. The lion asks "But why? You promised!" and the scorpion says "Because its my nature."


Or perhaps, you'd suggest paying the full asking price of every used boat for sale, because the broker must also be an honest ethical professional, and the boat must really be in the condition claimed and worth every cent the professional asks for it?


Sorry, but you've got to consider the risks, in all cases.


If you're so rich as to carry gobs of insurance and you can tell your attorney (you do have one on retainer, right?) "just take care of it"...good for you. Some of us HAVE been bitten before, and can't afford to have it happen again. Cynics are often the product of many many years of getting stung by all those wonderful people who just want a ride across the creek.


Do the right thing? Sure. Oh, wait a minute...I can't change into my cape and spandex superhero suit, there's no phone booths left any more.
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:00   #145
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Dockhead, it depends on the neighbor. And the child. There are some (of both) that I would gladly ask to stop screaming and just let go, if they were on the side of a cliff and trying to hold on.


I'd be more likely to help the humans than to go after the boat, but again, it would depend on circumstances.


It's like administering CPR. Once you start, you're obligated to keep on doing it, even if that means for two hours, until the person either revives or is transferred to professional care. In the US there are dual standards for that as well. If you're a "professional" who has received traditional "breath and bang" training, you have to apply both or else you are negligent by law. If you're a non-professional and have just been certified in the newer "compressions only" CPR, then you don't have to give breaths. If you're a Red Cross or other trained disaster responder, you can't apply a tourniquet because that's beyond your training, even if it is necessary and proven to save lives, and taught by the US military with 50 years of experience proving it works. There have been similar cases in the national nooze (maybe 5 years ago) regarding a responder pulling an injured person out of a car wreck, causing spinal damage. Well, no, they had been taught not to move the victim. But they thought the car might explode, so moving the victim (contrary to their training) seemed like the right thing to do. Ooops. The victim's lawyers said that didn't matter, it was contrary to the training.


That's nothing to do with ethics or morality, that's called "I can't afford a fifty million dollar lawsuit and the streets are filled with crazies." Ethics? Have to consider who you are dealing with.


Remember the parable about the lion and the scorpion? Scorpion asks the lion to help him swim across the rising creek, or else he'll die. Lion says "But you'll sting me and then I'll die." Scorpion says "Oh, no, I'd be forever grateful, I promise." And then stings the lion once they get across the creek. The lion asks "But why? You promised!" and the scorpion says "Because its my nature."


Or perhaps, you'd suggest paying the full asking price of every used boat for sale, because the broker must also be an honest ethical professional, and the boat must really be in the condition claimed and worth every cent the professional asks for it?


Sorry, but you've got to consider the risks, in all cases.


If you're so rich as to carry gobs of insurance and you can tell your attorney (you do have one on retainer, right?) "just take care of it"...good for you. Some of us HAVE been bitten before, and can't afford to have it happen again. Cynics are often the product of many many years of getting stung by all those wonderful people who just want a ride across the creek.


Do the right thing? Sure. Oh, wait a minute...I can't change into my cape and spandex superhero suit, there's no phone booths left any more.
Well, no one argues with the fact that there are risks.

What we are arguing is that doing the right thing often demands that one take on board some risks. I don't think being a cynic exempts one from this requirement.

Nor does ordinary ethical, selfless behavior require a cape or spandex, and it's a sad society, in my opinion, which thinks so.


Let's drill down a little into those risks. If you start to perform CPR, you indeed are required to finish the job, and not just get up in the middle and walk off. What's so shocking about that? Isn't that perfectly logical? And if you rescue someone, you're obligated to use reasonable care getting him on board (say), and to not knock his head off with the boathook. Unless you're exempted by some Good Samaritan statute, but let's take the worst case. If you secure your neighbor's boat in a storm, you are obligated to use reasonable care and do it properly. If you don't, and his boat gets smashed up, you are legally responsible, and he (or his insurance company) could sue you, although I bet it is exceptionally rare, when the retying was done in good faith.

Is that so terrible? You risk getting sued in any interaction with any other person. If you have guests on board, and one of them falls overboard, you can easily be sued for failing to instruct him properly, failing to use due care, etc., etc. I guess you never have guests on your boat, because they might sue you? If you drive down the street in front of your house, you can be sued for running over the neighbor's kid. This is just part of life. We could use some tort reform for sure, but meanwhile that's just life in these United States. So what? Are you going to cower in your living room and never go anywhere, trembling at the risk of getting sued? If not, then why would you shrink from helping someone, because there are some risks involved? If I am trying to help someone, and I bungle it, I expect to pay for that -- it goes with the territory. Being responsible for helping properly, is part and parcel of helping at all. When you set out to help someone, you go into it taking that risk on board. It's no different from driving down the street in front of your house and knowing you might not see the neighbor's kid chasing a ball into the street -- the cost of which could ruin you forever.


I don't think calling yourself a cynic, is any excuse to stand by and watch your neighbor's boat break loose from her moorings etc. It's not only not ethical, it's extremely unseamanlike. Definitely goes against the whole ethos of seafaring.
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:02   #146
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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Sorry, but you've got to consider the risks, in all cases.


Do the right thing? Sure. Oh, wait a minute...I can't change into my cape and spandex superhero suit, there's no phone booths left any more.
I thought we were talking about doing the right thing. More and more each year I find that people just make me sad. We complain about the world we live in, yet it it is the world we made.
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:06   #147
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No! Only you ruing about it. It goes back to not being your brothers keeper legally. I do however agree, act if you see a problem. Someone made the comment tell the dock master. In a marina, makes sense to me.
Remember a blow when wintering over in Agua Dulce near Almeria.. a cat broke its shore mooring lines and was just swinging on its bow pick up mooring.. it was around 2am and I was on my way back to the boat.
The night duty watchman was standing there just looking at it.. no way could he reach the boat and there was risk of considerable damage to it.. and others.
So I took a long run up and jumped the 10ft odd gap.. landed on deck and got some lines to him and we retied her securely.. no damage.
Never heard a peep from the owners but as far as the Marinheiro's were concerned I was 'The Man'.
I like helping out boats.. screw the owners
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:14   #148
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

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R.. it was around 2am and I was on my way back to the boat. . .
So I took a long run up and jumped the 10ft odd gap.. landed on deck and got some lines to him and we retied her securely...
2AM? Phil, you're being modest. That is surely the all time world record for the inebriated long jump You should write to Guinness
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:33   #149
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

I have gone out of the way to help others, but let's say my dock neighbor is a real dweeb. He spills gasoline in the water all the time, laughs and says "Yeah, well, the Coast Guard can't find it all." He plays loud polka music every night from 11PM to 3AM, and the dock is littered with empty beer cans every morning after one. And, he ties his boat to the dock with his "lucky shoe laces" because he knows they're weaker than dock lines, but hey, they're lucky.


And since his uncle owns the marina, I can't complain.


Would I feel compelled to prevent that boat from becoming kindling? Hell no.


Maybe you would.


If I see stranger aground, will I offer to throw them a line? Probably. Unless they're flying a Jolly Roger, in which case I'll probably pillage and burn the boat after taking off anything of value.(G)
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:49   #150
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Re: Boarding Neighbors in a Storm

People can make all the excuses and spin all the stories they want, but in the end no one can make them be a bad person.
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