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Old 13-10-2007, 19:44   #31
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Therapy,

You forgot to check my occupation. The 26 footer is a hobby - my day job is driving the much larger, heavier and less manoeuvrable craft. If you are dumb enough to not follow the rules and do stuff that is unpredictable in front of the large ships, you are a fool and won't be sailing long.

Kevin
Yea..........
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Old 14-10-2007, 13:29   #32
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Lodesman, you almost moved me to tears with your description requirements of your job. Don't worry I won't blow your cover and tell the world that the modern Canadian Frigate is one of the most manoeuvrable ships on the planet. I've been on one when it was stopped in its own length from 30 knots if I remember to zero. I won't embarrass you be mentioning its turning ability. I was in the Navy a long time ago, Chaudiere (DDE 235) was my ship out of Esquimalt - officer also.

Unless of course you are an officer on the Preserver, then.... lol... everything you say is true. But if you are in Ottawa, about the only craft you can stand officer of the watch on is a row boat on the Rideau Canal and a bottle of Gin at the Officers Wardroom - just don't ring the bell.

Ready, Aye, Ready.
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Old 14-10-2007, 14:30   #33
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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
David,

Narrow channel does not always imply there are draft constraints. San Diego is a good example, where a deep draft might collide with a jetty or the aircraft carrier tied up to it, without running aground. Anyone driving a large ship doesn't need to be told that San Diego is a narrow channel - it's self-evident. The port authority is advertising that fact to the small boat operators, in an attempt to have them not impede the large boats.
Making blanket statements like "In congested waters such as in harbors, large vessels constrained by their draft have the right of way over sailboats anyway." is misleading - it really depends on the harbor and whether or not narrow channel, tss, or special port rules apply.

Kevin
I realize that.... I know the SF bay intimately having operated a research vessel here for 20 years now. The entire SF Bay has effectively been declared a narrow channel by the port captain. Even though there are areas of the Bay such as the area between Point Bonita and the Golden Gate Bridge where ships that do draw a significant amount of water have some leeway to avoid a collision. Other areas of the Bay such as the South Hampton Shoal channel have no leeway for a deep draft vessel to avoid a collision. So what is the best decision for the port captain to make? The best decision is for him to declare the entire bay narrow channel so that all vessels under 20 meters and all vessels under sail have to stay clear of larger deep draft vessels regardless of where they are from the Line of Demarcation from Point Bonita through Mile Rocks and east of that line.

It makes perfect sense for the port captain to do such a thing. Otherwise? ..you get yachties saying that the deep draft vessel, when the yachtie got in the way and the ship almost ran them down, were not in a restricted channel...and therefore they were not at fault because they were in waters deep enough water for the ship to maneuver out of their way.

When ships get in the SF Bay and although they may be in deep water now, they are still very restricted in where they can turn to avoid a collision, especially if they are trying to make a narrow channel like the Oakland Bar Channel or make a mark which is marking the location of a submerged rock...such as Harding Rock or Blossom rock.

What is wrong with my logic or reasoning with the intent? I don't see it as misleading.
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Old 14-10-2007, 18:01   #34
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Lodesman, you almost moved me to tears with your description requirements of your job. Don't worry I won't blow your cover and tell the world that the modern Canadian Frigate is one of the most manoeuvrable ships on the planet. I've been on one when it was stopped in its own length from 30 knots if I remember to zero. I won't embarrass you be mentioning its turning ability.
Ah, rsn you've found me out
That's still a stopping distance of 134m (or 440 ft), and the turning diameter is still measured in hundreds of yards. May not be a VLCC, but it's way more than the average small boater has to consider. And when you factor in that you're pushing 5000 tonnes of ship over 30 knots, you have to be planning as far ahead of the ship as the VLCC driver, albeit for different reasons.

I believe the only time I spent on Chaudiere, it was the harbour training ship, and it wasn't going anywhere with blocks of concrete instead of screws. Spent time in MAC, IRE, ANN, HAL, IRO, KIN, BAY classes and Provider (not really a sistership of Protecteur, but close enough for government work, eh). Unfortunately I'm driving a desk now, but I didn't forget the previous 18 years overnight. I try to keep my hand in with these rule of the road discussions, and working on my civi papers (MM).

K
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Old 14-10-2007, 18:15   #35
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Unfortunately I'm driving a desk now, but I didn't forget the previous 18 years overnight. I try to keep my hand in with these rule of the road discussions, and working on my civi papers (MM).

K
Sort of thought that.

Knew that.

Still pretty spry you are though!
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Old 14-10-2007, 19:29   #36
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What is wrong with my logic or reasoning with the intent? I don't see it as misleading.
Well David, your original point suggested that sailboats have to give way to large vessels whenever the waters are crowded - that is not correct unless Rules 9, 10 or special port rules apply. Your statement that SF bay has special rules in place only backs that up. Constrained by draft may apply beyond the demarcation lines, but not in Canadian waters or US Inland waters. Take for instance the PNW waters, such as Haro Strait, where it's often congested and large commercial vessels stay out of the way of sailboats, if required. Anyways, as stated earlier, I was just being pedantic, not trying to start a fight.
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Old 16-10-2007, 00:00   #37
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No problem ...I enjoy a good discussion.

Cheers!
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