Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-10-2009, 07:03   #601
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
I think that is precisely the point - they are apples and oranges - a fully crewed boat hits a known charted object and a solo sailor hits a moving ship - that is precisely the point- I am not seeking to apportion blame in either case - just trying to understand how others are able to do that?
What is precisely the point is that we don't know yet what happened in the case of Short, et. al., as it is still being investigated. Given the fact that it was an experienced crew aboard, I'm guessing that none of us feel the urge to jump to any conclusions -- at least as it applies to apportioning blame.

In the case of Ms. Watson, it was immediately self-evident that she at least shared blame due to negligence (not keeping a proper watch in a shipping lane). This fact was then later confirmed by Australian authorities.
__________________

__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 08:01   #602
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Here's more info:

Dead maxi-yacht skipper Andrew Short was not wearing lifejacket | The Australian
__________________

__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 08:25   #603
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
TaoJones's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montrose, Colorado
Posts: 9,850
Those who seem to want to use the tragic deaths of Andrew Short and Sally Gordon as somehow vindicating Ms. Watson's quest to get her name in the record books are overlooking a much more salient point. And that point is that if the ocean can so quickly claim the lives of mariners as experienced as Mr. Short and Ms. Gordon, how much greater is the danger for an inexperienced sailor such as Jessica Watson in a hostile environment like the Southern Ocean?

Keep in mind that a third crewman was swept overboard along with Mr. Short and Ms. Gordon, but the rest of the crew were able to save him. If Ms. Watson is sent over the side by her boom, who's going to rescue her?

The terrible irony that Andrew Short had just given Jessica a letter from Andrew Cape warning her of the dangers present in sailing, and was dead himself only hours later, cannot be lost on her (one would hope.)

TaoJones
__________________
"Your vision becomes clear only when you look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks within, awakens."
Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961)
TaoJones is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 08:32   #604
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
For the Aussies reading - - maybe a decade or so ago the Australia government got tired of the professional "round the world" races wrecking or floundering at sea and the Aussie rescue ships would spend millions going out and rescuing these folks. So there was talk of charging a "bond" of a million dollars or something to offset the rescue costs. Is that still in effect?
- - Since Jessica, Inc. (Ltd.) is getting money, selling products, etc., her venture is a commercial operation and has she paid the bond? (if there is one) Just wondering.
__________________
osirissail is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 09:46   #605
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
Those who seem to want to use the tragic deaths of Andrew Short and Sally Gordon as somehow vindicating Ms. Watson's quest to get her name in the record books are overlooking a much more salient point. And that point is that if the ocean can so quickly claim the lives of mariners as experienced as Mr. Short and Ms. Gordon, how much greater is the danger for an inexperienced sailor such as Jessica Watson in a hostile environment like the Southern Ocean?

Keep in mind that a third crewman was swept overboard along with Mr. Short and Ms. Gordon, but the rest of the crew were able to save him. If Ms. Watson is sent over the side by her boom, who's going to rescue her?

The terrible irony that Andrew Short had just given Jessica a letter from Andrew Cape warning her of the dangers present in sailing, and was dead himself only hours later, cannot be lost on her (one would hope.)

TaoJones
Yes, absolutely.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 12:49   #606
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland, France
Boat: 33ft sloop
Posts: 1,091
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
For the Aussies reading - - maybe a decade or so ago the Australia government got tired of the professional "round the world" races wrecking or floundering at sea and the Aussie rescue ships would spend millions going out and rescuing these folks. So there was talk of charging a "bond" of a million dollars or something to offset the rescue costs. Is that still in effect?
- - Since Jessica, Inc. (Ltd.) is getting money, selling products, etc., her venture is a commercial operation and has she paid the bond? (if there is one) Just wondering.
I think they are in their absolute right.
Just remember the rescue of Isabelle Autissier and the way how she treated the rescuers afterward (verbally).
__________________
MacG is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 13:48   #607
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG View Post
...
Just remember the rescue of Isabelle Autissier and the way how she treated the rescuers afterward (verbally).
I neither get your point (analogous to Jessica) nor recall what you may be referring to in regard to Autissier’s comments (perhaps the greatest female sail racer).

I do recall that weeks after being rescued (by one of her competitors, Giovanni Soldini of Italy) from the Southern seas (for the second time in her career) Isabelle Autissier had this to say about racing around the world alone:

"No more.… This has been my crazy job for 10 years. I had 10 wonderful years doing that, maybe the best years of my life - great adventures, great friends, great feelings. It has been a wonderful story for me. But now it's time to do something else."
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 13:56   #608
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland, France
Boat: 33ft sloop
Posts: 1,091
Images: 5
It refers to the quotation.
About which rescue you are talking?

She received from the Australian Government a bill for her rescue, they had sent out a Frigate to catch her. The name of Soldini I did not see ikn this case.
__________________
MacG is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 14:00   #609
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: British Columbia, Mexico
Boat: S&S Hughes 38
Posts: 837
Images: 23
My Hughes 38 is an S&S design,almost the same boat,and there is no way I would consider it suitable for the southern ocean.If she has real sponsors (in their right mind) they should at least provide her with a vessel capable of the route she(they?) has planned.This sounds like a suicide mission to me,don't get me wrong,with the right boat, I believe she could succeed.How many stories have we heard how cruel the Cape Horn area can be.
__________________
highseas is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 14:35   #610
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
TaoJones's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montrose, Colorado
Posts: 9,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by highseas View Post
My Hughes 38 is an S&S design,almost the same boat,and there is no way I would consider it suitable for the southern ocean.If she has real sponsors (in their right mind) they should at least provide her with a vessel capable of the route she(they?) has planned.This sounds like a suicide mission to me,don't get me wrong,with the right boat, I believe she could succeed.How many stories have we heard how cruel the Cape Horn area can be.
I think you're right, highseas, and that is why I seriously doubt she will ever get her "cute" little pink boat wet in the Southern Ocean. If she actually manages to sail to the equator and makes the proposed loop around one of the islands in The Republic of Kiribati, I won't be surprised if she then abandons her attempt and sails directly back to Australia.

Actually completing the proposed record-breaking attempt will add little to her already-very-high profile. Even if she's "forced" to abandon the attempt, it will do nothing to detract from her image - it may even enhance it.

Hopefully, someone with powerful influence in her life, and a sincere concern for her well-being, will have already figured the above out.

TaoJones
__________________
"Your vision becomes clear only when you look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks within, awakens."
Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961)
TaoJones is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 14:51   #611
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
completing the proposed record-breaking attempt will add little to her already-very-high profile.
This thread is getting huge and is also primarily geared towards a discussion of whether she will fail or succeed. Not wanting to hijack, I started a different thread to explore just exactly what her proposal is. It seems a bit vague...

Edit: Bark's other thread is here: What Does 'Solo, Nonstop and Unassisted' Mean, Exactly?
__________________
Bark is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 17:06   #612
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,005
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Her boat is not the same boat as yours, The designer was S&S, the same as yours, but the build quality has proven extremely strong. These S&S 34 has been actively campaigned in all the major races around the world including the Fastnet and Sidney Hobart. They have proven more than adequate to handle everything the ocean can throw at them. The size of the cockpit is about the only thing that I'd change from my long distance perusal of the design.
Aloha
Peter O.
__________________
roverhi is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 17:29   #613
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
Sigh.

I know I am just going to have to unsubscribe again... but;

vis a vis the recent death of the Shorts and Jessica's endeavor being compared. I feel the salient point here is the Shorts were experienced ADULTS whom made the decision understanding the risks involved and then went forward with their sailing plan.

When Jessica is an ADULT I feel confident she will be more than capable of assessing risks and making decisions and then attempting adventures on her own recognisance. Until then it is criminal neglience on the part of her parents to support and encourage this foolhardy solo excursion. in my opinion. barely.

This is not about risk and living or dying. it is about responsibility and negligence and foolishness. I don't hear anyone considering the Short's deaths foolhardy. Well except for the bit about no PFD on the Captain (but even that was his own personal risk)... It seems to be a general consensus of "Sailing, and racing in particular, is risky and they took a risk and lost the toss of the dice. How sad"

With Jessica I can only hope that the same god that watches out for fools and drunks will be watching out for her. Her parents sure aren't.

And please do not turn this into "You awful person wishing failure on poor Jessica, just a girl with a dream." I would never wish her to fail. But my common sense says she has a very good chance of failing and that makes me sad. I expect it will make her parents sad if it comes to that but it will be a bit too late at that point won't it?

I can't believe we are still talking about this... but we are. I wonder why...
__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline  
Old 13-10-2009, 18:41   #614
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
What is precisely the point is that we don't know yet what happened in the case of Short, et. al., as it is still being investigated. Given the fact that it was an experienced crew aboard, I'm guessing that none of us feel the urge to jump to any conclusions -- at least as it applies to apportioning blame.

In the case of Ms. Watson, it was immediately self-evident that she at least shared blame due to negligence (not keeping a proper watch in a shipping lane). This fact was then later confirmed by Australian authorities.
I hadn't considered the point about apportioning blame; I believe it is self evident the rock wasn't at fault and it is (IMO) disrespectful to jump to other conclusions due to the deaths involved. I agree that let's wait for the facts to be presented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
Those who seem to want to use the tragic deaths of Andrew Short and Sally Gordon as somehow vindicating Ms. Watson's quest to get her name in the record books are overlooking a much more salient point. And that point is that if the ocean can so quickly claim the lives of mariners as experienced as Mr. Short and Ms. Gordon, how much greater is the danger for an inexperienced sailor such as Jessica Watson in a hostile environment like the Southern Ocean?
For my part, I am not arguing about JW and her record quest, rather that many (some?) believe she should somehow be prevented from sailing due to the dangers involved. For those who take the stand she should be prevented, doesn't the Shockwave deaths prove that the dangers are real and such dangers apply equally to very experienced sailors; therefore rationally experienced sailors should also be prevented from sailing. Why are they so silent - perhaps their JW arguments are based on emotions rather than logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post

The terrible irony that Andrew Short had just given Jessica a letter from Andrew Cape warning her of the dangers present in sailing, and was dead himself only hours later, cannot be lost on her (one would hope.)

TaoJones
Agreed totally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
For the Aussies reading - - maybe a decade or so ago the Australia government got tired of the professional "round the world" races wrecking or floundering at sea and the Aussie rescue ships would spend millions going out and rescuing these folks. So there was talk of charging a "bond" of a million dollars or something to offset the rescue costs. Is that still in effect?
AFAIK, it was only talk and perhaps not enforceable due to SOLAS requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by highseas View Post
My Hughes 38 is an S&S design,almost the same boat,and there is no way I would consider it suitable for the southern ocean.If she has real sponsors (in their right mind) they should at least provide her with a vessel capable of the route she(they?) has planned.This sounds like a suicide mission to me,don't get me wrong,with the right boat, I believe she could succeed.How many stories have we heard how cruel the Cape Horn area can be.
As others have posted, the S&S 34 has proved itself many times in the Southern Ocean

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
....
Actually completing the proposed record-breaking attempt will add little to her already-very-high profile. Even if she's "forced" to abandon the attempt, it will do nothing to detract from her image - it may even enhance it.
Very True, especially locally, Aussies love someone who gives it a go, we love an underdog and we love someone who is big enough to know when to call it quits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
Hopefully, someone with powerful influence in her life, and a sincere concern for her well-being, will have already figured the above out.

TaoJones
Agreed, and we life in hope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
Sigh.

.....
When Jessica is an ADULT I feel confident she will be more than capable of assessing risks and making decisions and then attempting adventures on her own recognisance. Until then it is criminal neglience on the part of her parents to support and encourage this foolhardy solo excursion. in my opinion. barely.
So I can follow this argument, just what is your personal definition of ADULT?

If she isn't an adult, I have to agree with your points; however if she is, then she has the same rights to follow her own sailing paths as any other sailor has - regardless of experience etc etc. We can discuss the relative merits of her or any others enterprise but not the rights to do so (IMO).

It would seem to me that she IS considered an adult by law (in Oz) but again, it comes down to definitions.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now  
Old 13-10-2009, 19:06   #615
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,454
Images: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
For the Aussies reading - - maybe a decade or so ago the Australia government got tired of the professional "round the world" races wrecking or floundering at sea and the Aussie rescue ships would spend millions going out and rescuing these folks. So there was talk of charging a "bond" of a million dollars or something to offset the rescue costs. Is that still in effect?
- - Since Jessica, Inc. (Ltd.) is getting money, selling products, etc., her venture is a commercial operation and has she paid the bond? (if there is one) Just wondering.
This was discussed in the media, but I don't think it was ever put in place. Mariners in need of rescue in Aus waters are rescued free of charge. AFAIK, it's the same everywhere.
__________________

__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now  
Closed Thread

Tags
jessica watson

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jessica Watson Artful Dodger Cruising News & Events 10 16-06-2010 05:39
Yachting SUCCEED - Jessica Watson surfingminniwinni Cruising News & Events 111 28-10-2009 08:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.