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Old 21-09-2009, 13:08   #256
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Originally Posted by GeoPowers View Post
That's rude.
Yeah. So was this comment:
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You do know that stand-on vessels shall only maneuver to STBD for this reason right?
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And I certainly don't feel the need to give you a breakdown of my years standing bridgewatch.
No-one asked for this.

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If you have a specific distance or time answering your own question that fits all conditions and situations, I'm sure we'd love to learn a little bit from you. I know I would.
I didn't say there was a specific distance. But there are certainly a range of distances, and I was curious to hear how others determined that range - what their thought processes are. C&L describe the outer limits of what they call stage 2 (where the stand-on vessel is obliged to maintain co and sp) as 5 to 8 miles. This is not all-encompassing; obviously two slow vessels or a situation where one vessel is slowly overtaking another will reduce this range, just as two very fast vessels closing at a high relative speed will extend this range.

The biggest factor is closing speed. There are other factors, but let's look at some that you brought up.

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Day or night?
The steering and sailing rules don't distinguish between day and night. At night-time we may have to push out the limits of stage 3 and 4 (stand on vessel may and shall respectively, take action) as it may be difficult to assess the manoeuvrability of the other vessel in the dark.

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What's the CPA...1000 yds? 500? 600? 3000? CBDR(CPA=0)?
Do you really think the range at which a risk of collision does not yet exist will depend on whether the CPA is 500 or 600 yards? Outside of the US Navy, there will be few masters that consider that risk of collision exists at all if the CPA is a mile and a half! Even with 1000 yard CPA, many ships will not deviate their courses. 99% of the time I'd be perfectly happy with passing at a half-mile, but I'd monitor the situation 'til we're past and clear.

Quote:
how long before CPA? Overtaking? Crossing? Relative speed?
This is a reasonable point. The fact that I left it out of the scenario I gave shouldn't have kept you from making a ballpark statement. As I said closing speed is the biggest factor - and that derives from the ships involved and from which relative directions they are approaching each other.

Quote:
12-14 ft waves, or flat seas?
What does this have to do with it??? You shouldn't be determining stage 2 based solely on your own perception of the situation - you need to consider the other guy's perception of the situation. A 60,000 tonne collier does not notice whether the seas are flat or 14-ft. Now if the seas are so huge that it will affect the collier, it's a different story, but visibility would also be hampered in a storm and if steering a weather course he may be considered not under command - making you the give-way vessel.

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Reduced vis?
Well I said you "see" him at 8 miles so vis is hardly reduced. And in restricted vis, there are no stand-on or give-way vessels.

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15 kts wind right on the nose, or 10 kts on the beam?
As with the wave height, until the wind is at storm force this means SFA to the guy driving a cargo ship.

Quote:
Is he yelling at you in Farsi on the VHF?
Well they usually don't contact you from 8 miles out, and if they do it shouldn't matter anyway on when you need to stand on.

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Does my VHF work?
I can see where this could extend the range of stage 3, but think it has very little to do with stage 2. The current wisdom downplays the use of VHF, in order to avoid VHF-assisted collisions.

Quote:
Do I have radar? Does he?
Well if you have radar, you should have a better appreciation of range, CPA, TCPA which helps you determine if there is a risk of collision - but it doesn't put you in the mindset of the guy on the other bridge. And you don't know if he has radar or not, so it really should have no bearing on your decision.

So in the situation where I'm in a 39-ft sailboat making 5 kts and I see a 225 m fully-laden bulk carrier doing 10 kts at 8 miles: if head-on I'll be closing a 15 kts giving TCPA in 32 mins, but if he's overtaking, then the closing rate is only 5 kts giving TCPA in 1h36m - any angle towards a crossing situation will put TCPA somewhere between the two. Given that it's open ocean and I'm not needing to alter course or speed for navigational reasons and there is no other traffic, I would be able to get enough bearing checks or radar plotting to determine if risk of collision exists by the time he closes to 6 miles regardless of the relative direction. If head-on I would consider 5-6 miles as being the transition from stage 1 to 2 - if I was going to make alterations then, I would make them bold enough to be apparent to him at that range. By 5 miles I would be holding my course and speed. If it was an overtaking scenario, it would be conceivable that the wind would change enough in an hour and a half to force me to change course or affect my speed so I would not feel constrained by the obligations of Rule 17(a)(i) until the distance closed to about 2.5-3 miles. Any other situation would fall between those extremes.

That's my process; I'm open to comments. Does anyone else want to share their methodology?
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Old 22-09-2009, 05:53   #257
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Can someone explain to me, why I'm still reading this thread????
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Old 22-09-2009, 08:13   #258
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- - What is the answer to - when the need for independent action by the stand-on vessel - occurs? It is not a difficult answer but highly subjective one. For instance two dinghies in a "dinghy drift" can consume a lot of beer/wine/rum between recognition of a collision course and the need for independent action. Two military ship's doing 30 kts and closing on each other will encounter the "pucker zone" when miles from each other. The high speed "cigarette" or super speed power boats will probably collide when on a head-on course before can even see each other.
- - So the answer is: considering the speed and ability of your vessel to get out of the way - independent action should be taken just before your ability to get out of the way is lost.
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Old 22-09-2009, 09:01   #259
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Can someone explain to me, why I'm still reading this thread????
- - That is the easiest question yet. Chose the one you like:
1. We are trying to set the "world record for longest thread" in CF history.
2. We are pretending to be Cable News anchors and "filling" in with anything and everything possible while waiting for Jessica to make her next move.
3. We have too much time on our hands and no useful functions to perform beyond scratching our "stern section."
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Old 22-09-2009, 09:10   #260
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Returning to our regularly scheduled broadcast.....
Did she get her rig fixed and is there a new scheduled departure date?
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Old 22-09-2009, 10:26   #261
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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
- - That is the easiest question yet. Chose the one you like:
1. We are trying to set the "world record for longest thread" in CF history.
2. We are pretending to be Cable News anchors and "filling" in with anything and everything possible while waiting for Jessica to make her next move.
3. We have too much time on our hands and no useful functions to perform beyond scratching our "stern section."

I pick #3 as busines is down 70% from a year ago. <cryin>
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Old 22-09-2009, 12:02   #262
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Originally Posted by surfingminniwinni View Post
Can someone explain to me, why I'm still reading this thread????
Actually for those who are new to COLREGS (Rules of the Road) I think this is a good lesson on how some very knowledgeable sailors disagree on interpretation of the Rules, yet at the same time agree (in principal) when a departure from the Rules is necessary to avoid a collision.

With over 25 years command experience on passenger ships and super yachts I always kept an inward smile when interviewing bright, newly licensed watch keeping officers who could quote the Rules verbatim front and backwards.

At sea I would watch those eager young guys justify their actions to the lookout, quoting the rules and see them fall into 2 basic camps.

1/….The nervous WK who would make course alterations at 9 miles.

2/….The confident WK who would defend his stand on position, with the opposing ship using VHF, flashing our 30 million candlepower searchlight, sounding the danger signal, before reluctantly concede to making a radical course change under 3nm, while lamenting the incompetence of other ships.

What those talented guys were simply lacking was the years of experience needed, so as to have a full “Appreciation” of the circumstances to make life easier on themselves and the closing ship.

General distance guidelines when using Radar is:

12nm to 6nm is detection Range
6nm to 4nm is assessment Range
4nm to 3nm is Action.

Obviously closing speed and speed differential will adjust those ranges, but what many people fail to appreciate is that it is only at about 4nm that a watch keeper looking thru binocs can actually see the lights or aspect of a ship to visually confirm if it will be a crossing or passing situation and act accordingly.

The ability to mentally stand on the others bridge and see how they see you as well as an awareness of the other’s probable passage plan if near a junction or with other conflicting ships helps immensely to relieve the pressure of a tight situation.

Sometimes you need to be aware and appreciate the other guy’s situation. Then by making a readily apparent course change that will help him out, even if you are the “stand-on vessel, is what experience teaches you.

You do not learn that from reading the Rules, but you need to know them, to do this safely. That is the part they talk about in my favorite Rule 2a called “seamanship”

I also agree that Australian authorities should not waste their time or taxpayers dollars on a minor scrape between a ship and an amateur sailor called Jessica. It is self evident that they both screwed up in one way or another
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Old 22-09-2009, 14:26   #263
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As a matter of amusement --

Years ago I was taught that regardless of their title, the COLREGS had nothing to do with avoiding collision at sea. I was told that the true reason for the existence of the COLREGS was to assess fault after a collision.

Probably.
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Old 22-09-2009, 14:45   #264
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sounds like lawyerspeak to me, may they all ferment at the bottom of a lost ocean
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Old 22-09-2009, 15:22   #265
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I was told that the true reason for the existence of the COLREGS was to assess fault after a collision.
If there was no collision is there a real problem anyone needs to care about? If you just miss a serious collision are you are hero or an idiot?

The answer: Depends if my wife was aboard. She always knows these things with clear certainty.

COLREGS are measured in sea disasters avoided. If you avoid a lot of disasters are you a great sailor?
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Old 22-09-2009, 16:57   #266
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2/….The confident WK who would defend his stand on position, with the opposing ship using VHF, flashing our 30 million candlepower searchlight, sounding the danger signal, before reluctantly concede to making a radical course change under 3nm, while lamenting the incompetence of other ships.
Interesting observations. On the flip side of the coin, I've found that newbie watchkeepers in the give-way ship have some bizarre need to close the stand-on vessel to about 2 miles, then make the required alteration (regardless of when they've assessed the situation). If your confident WK above stood his ground, I'm sure the opposing ship would have taken action at 2 miles.
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Old 24-09-2009, 18:14   #267
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I hope those pics above were taken BEFORE the mishap. Call me a cynic. Lately there seems to have been a lot of talk about young people sailing around the world. How much real heavy weather and emergency experience can a young person have? The sailing part is easy but when the sh^t hits and you're worn out, weak, a little scared - then what? I would guess she has all the modern electronics to help and the world rescue apparatus if needed. Still it seems somewhat irresponsible to me. Some how the word "stunt" sticks in my mind. I do wish her safe passage!

Jim
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Old 24-09-2009, 19:41   #268
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How much real heavy weather and emergency experience can a young person have? The sailing part is easy but when the sh^t hits and you're worn out, weak, a little scared - then what?
Jim, they only go around Cape Horn and Cape of Good Hope once. Whats the problem?

Now, I hand to you in evidence the January Pilot of Australia to Cape Horn - is January the best month? I think thats when she is expected there - Look at the percentage days of Gales above Force 8. Hardly ever a day of blow... 18%, 19% chance only. And in some places between Australia just 15% chance of a Force 8. Nearly negligible! Theres even a 10% square! Lower!
And the passage would only be 2 months (perhaps 3 months)... say its 2 months @ 15% Gales = 9 days.

So she will only be expected to get 9 days of gales 34+ Knots on this leg. Thats nothing! Any 16 year old should be able to handle that!

Look at her experience: In the Brisbane area a place of 0% gales or 1% gales. So in all her years of sailing she will have had 0% or 1% of her days in Force 8 gales. Shes a regular Gale girl!

If she gets into trouble she can ring home: 1/2 way is only 3,000 NMs a bit more than the distance between New York and LA. Then Mumma can help and Dada can complain to the media and Ella Bache can move their sponsorship onto the 15 year old American girl...




"Sea Life" is in a Zero % Gale area I'm glad I don't have to prove nuffin



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Old 24-09-2009, 20:27   #269
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I like to sail out of the way of big ships so they don't hit me and I don't hit them. What's COLREGS?
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Old 24-09-2009, 20:35   #270
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Jim, they only go around Cape Horn and Cape of Good Hope once. Whats the problem?

Now, I hand to you in evidence the January Pilot of Australia to Cape Horn - is January the best month? I think thats when she is expected there - Look at the percentage days of Gales above Force 8. Hardly ever a day of blow... 18%, 19% chance only. And in some places between Australia just 15% chance of a Force 8. Nearly negligible! Theres even a 10% square! Lower!
And the passage would only be 2 months (perhaps 3 months)... say its 2 months @ 15% Gales = 9 days.

"Sea Life" is in a Zero % Gale area I'm glad I don't have to prove nuffin



Mark
What's the technical name (or product) for the chart you show, that demonstrates the likelihood of Force 8 wind conditions in a given area?
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