Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-09-2009, 09:04   #181
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,571
Images: 240
In another context, some wise soul on the CF said:
"It's not whose right ...
It's who's left."
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 09:09   #182
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
the arguments about who is at fault is separate from the discussion concerning the fitness of a 16 year old to do what she is planning on doing. Yes, she was under sail. Yes, she may have had the right of way.

so what?

It's just plain foolhardy to not GET OUT OF THE WAY of the big ships. Please, people, do you all know how MUCH trouble I would have been in sailing in the canal area if I had copped a "I was under sail and had the right of way" attitude while playing tag with the big boys??

I have sailed the SF bay, and that is where I am beginning to get my toes wet again. The port authourities have no patience or tolerance for sailors who do not use common sense and stay outta the way of the commercial shipping.

The area she was in sounds (somewhat) comparable to the situations I am referencing. It doesn't matter if she was right. what matters is smart, and alive. Looks to me like she is only one of those at this point, and really I fear if she heads out again the odds of her being neither are pretty significant.

Please, honestly, who here would or has deliberately forced or tried to force a container ship to deviate from their path to make way for your "right of way"?

Honestly, I do want to know, maybe outside of incredibly cramped areas where I have experience the norm is different and a different standard should be applied.
__________________

__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 09:51   #183
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
an honest answer, as per your request

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
t
Please, honestly, who here would or has deliberately forced or tried to force a container ship to deviate from their path to make way for your "right of way"?

Honestly, I do want to know, maybe outside of incredibly cramped areas where I have experience the norm is different and a different standard should be applied.
Sarafina, things are different in the open ocean then in places like SF Bay where Rule 9 applies for vessels constrained by draft. In the open ocean a sailboat will usually be the stand-on vessel, which comes with the obligation to maintain course and speed so that the burdened vessel can make necessary adjustments. If the stand-on vessel alters course it's entirely possible that its new course will be right in the way of the maneuver the burdened vessel is making to avoid a collision.

My general practice when offshore is to contact the ship via VHF. While I've heard others complain of an inability to get a response, I have never once had this experience. At the point of contact it's often the case that the ship would prefer me to hold my course and speed.

Example: One night in dense fog in the shipping channel off Santa Barbara I was being overtaken by a container ship that, according to my MARPA system was approaching at 21 knots relative speed and was within five minutes of a collision. I made a "Securite" broadcast announcing my position and requested a response from the overtaking ship. We switched to a working channel, and I asked whether he wanted me to alter my course to 270 degrees magnetic. He responded that he preferred me to hold my course because he was changing his course in the same direction.

In answer to your question, the concept "right of way" is entirely a misnomer. As the overtaken vessel, I had no right to get in that ship's way.While he had a corresponding responsibility to avoid me, I had an obligation to maintain course and speed up to a point where a collision seemed immanent. It's a system that actually works, but only when everyone knows the rules and follows them. Communication helps.

The most important of these rules is that every vessel must keep a proper watch at all times. I have yet to see a compelling argument that a child can do this while engaged in a singlehanded passage, especially in a shipping lane.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 10:04   #184
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nevada City. CA
Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 3,745
Images: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sv Apolima View Post
A 16 year old teenager does not have the experience, maturity or money to safely complete a round the world voyage. How many people have said" I didn't know enough to know how little I knew" when they realized their mistakes.

Isn't it nice to be living in a first world country. We have the time to debate the merits of sailing around the world by a 16 year old while many thousands of people die in this world everyday from starvation, revolution, war, or famine. Is a 16 year old too young to sail around the world? The answer is a resounding NO. Two 16 year olds have already accomplished it Zac Sunderland and Mike Perham - Youngest round the world . So is this debate different because she is a girl (or is it a woman). there are plenty of 16 year old's who are pregnanat or have children. Jessica has no chilfren but she has sponsors. I'm not sure which is a worse bureden at her age.

Can Jessica make this voyage? That is for the future to tell. Two people who are the same age have accomplished it so there is a reasonable chance that she will be able to do it. Is it possible that she will die. Yes. Kids all over the world face the threat of death everyday. Going to school with drive by shootings a child can end up dead. Going to a stream to fetch water a child can fall in the stream , be attacked by a wild animal, kidnapped, or any number of things.

Sailing arond the world and other stunts have been occuring for decades. They can be expensive and risk the life of others in SAR operations. But who has the fortitude to say -- Ok you can go but if you get in trouble you are on your own.

Jessica didn't come up the Hause pipe. That is not the only way to get a boat though. She has got the boat thru sponsorship. Is there really something wrong with that? Not my style but nothing wrong with it.

How can we judge if Jessica is ready for this voyage. At this point I am amazed by her pluck. Getting run over by a ship and still willing to continue. I did some brainless things in my teenage years and lived to talk about them. A 16 year old may not have the same judgement as a 20 year old. It could be better or worse. I know plenty of 20 and 30 year olds who have DUI's and blow every dime they make. I know kids who at 12 knew they wanted to be doctors and study hard to do so. Kids are not cloned machines and what one 16 year old can accomplish another may never be able to accomplish.

Jessica is going to try this again. I hope she makes it. I pray that she is safe and doesn't risk anyone else's life. Ultimately it is her choice. We can protect our children and make sure that no harm comes to them (at least we can try) but if we over protect them thy will never mature. They will remain children. Jessica has had an auspicious start to a circumnaviagtion. I am concerned whether or not she has enough luck in her to last long enough to gain the experience that she will need to make this trip a success.

Whatever Jessica has done she has struck a cord and 13 pages of text here on CF. If she was my daughter I would be having a serious conversation with her about continuing.
__________________
Fair Winds,

Charlie

Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
Joseph Conrad
Charlie is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 10:24   #185
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, Wash.
Boat: no longer on my Cabo Rico 38 Sanderling
Posts: 1,794
Send a message via MSN to John A
Sara,
All of your points are valid.

In the SF Bay big ships must stay within channels or they will run aground and they have local pilots to insure that they do stay within the channels. They also must maintain a speed of 5 knots to provide steerage and when they slow down, tugs are used to assist in turning.

The multiple sailboat races on any weekend and who should get out of the way is for another thread.

It's a very simple process to keep a proper watch and make a slight course change to pass to the stern of another ship/boat, rather than jepardize your life, your crews, or your boat. It is very stupid not to do so. IMHO.

Would you enter an intersection with your car when the light was green and there was a truck in that intersection just because you had the right-of-way?

Back to the original cause and effect of this tragic accident. NEVER go below or sleep when it is unsafe to do so! And within 100 hundred miles of a coast or in a shipping lane is not the place to nap\sleep!
John
__________________
John A is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 11:48   #186
Senior Cruiser
 
Ocean Girl's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: In transit ( Texas to wherever the wind blows us)
Boat: Pacific Seacraft a Crealock 34
Posts: 4,115
Images: 2
More thread drift - sorry

Actually her route is my biggest concern, more so than her age. It is very different to sail around the world in legs, taking the well worn route of the panama canal and the cape of good hope (that is dangerous enough). It is quite another story to sail non-stop around the Capes. That has never been done by a 16 year old and very few singlehanders non-stop.

To bad we havent heard any of the vende globe captains comment on this (youngest woman was 24). They would be the ones who could give a informed opinion on what she is to encounter, but maybe that would be bad form. Here is a link to the average weather condition 2008/2009 for that route, I realize they are racing which put a whole new stress and dynamics.

Sorry if this is a thread drift, hey wait, what if I say - if she can't dodge a freighter how can she dodge the ice bergs in the roaring forties? - is it still a thread drift?
Erika
__________________
Ocean Girl is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 12:02   #187
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nevada City. CA
Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 3,745
Images: 9
Good Point about the route she is planning on taking. Mike Perham was planning on doing a non stop circumnavigaton from Britan but his plans changed b/c he had to put in to Portugal and then a number of other places with various problems.
__________________
Fair Winds,

Charlie

Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
Joseph Conrad
Charlie is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 12:02   #188
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
Erika, this thread has more drift than a ten foot snow bank in a blizzard.

And your point is well taken. This voyage is not planned in legs, it is a non stop. Imagine being on your boat for 9 to 12 months... without seeing anyone for all that time. Now imagine a 16 year old after one of the inevitable scares that she will have on a voyage of this magnitude; not off the shore of her home port where she can call home when she runs afoul of a tanker, and mummy and daddy can be there when you sail into port, where nice people will fix it for you... for free...

Out in the middle of the blue water, where she seems to have no real experience, dealing with the crisis that can be expected. alone.

arrggh.. this is all so ridiculous.
__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 12:05   #189
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
My general practice when offshore is to contact the ship via VHF. ...... I made a "Securite" broadcast announcing my position and requested a response from the overtaking ship.
One of the real benefits of using an AIS receiver, is that you have the identity of the ship, and also can make a direct DSC call to that ship.

The other advantage is (if using a piece of software like shipplotter) that you can get CPA and timing information before being in sight, thus you can manipulate your own course and speed to avoid difficult decisions later about whether the "give way" ship has seen you or intends to stay clear.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 12:11   #190
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
point well taken

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
One of the real benefits of using an AIS receiver, is that you have the identity of the ship, and also can make a direct DSC call to that ship.
Which reminds me that I've had a DSC radio for three years now and still haven't learned how to use that feature.

Sheesh.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 12:32   #191
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,537
About the age thing, I saw Mike Perham being interviewed on breakfast tv in UK last week. He came across as a very intellegent, level headed and objective guy. When asked about the 13 year old Dutch girl he was obviously smart enough not to say anything too precise but replied something like "Well, to me age is just a number, I havenīt met the girl so canīt comment really but canīt condem her either, I mean I did the Atlantic single handed when I was fourteen".
__________________
conachair is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 13:28   #192
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sweden westcoast
Boat: Allegro 33
Posts: 100
Did she have AIS?/ Harry
__________________
Hurricane Harry is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 19:16   #193
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
Yes, she was under sail.
How certain are we of that? Not saying she wasn't but it struck me that if she had the main up when it folded, at least part of it should still be stuck in the top section of the mast. And it looks to me like the foresail may have been furled when it went down. Besides the wind-gen and solar panels I don't know what her power plan was - but apparently she blogged that navlights and radar went on at sundown, so it's possible she was running the engine.
__________________
Lodesman is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 19:35   #194
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
Quote:
Erika, this thread has more drift than a ten foot snow bank in a blizzard.
Give the new girl a star even if she does not hail from serious snow country.

The thread suffers more from what it's not that what the topic is. In the history of CF this one has lasted longer than most. Tragedy plays out poorly most all the time here - eventually. The speculation runs to at least two extremes most all the time because they are obviously better sailors or those that wouldn't have allowed to happen in the first place by not going. There is this tension that says CF members can decide the right ourtcome or the wrong action just becuase they assert it. Knowing the details never happens yet the thread goes on. There has been very little information yet a lot of specualtion. Specualtion isn't all bad unless it's all specualtion.
__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline  
Old 17-09-2009, 19:37   #195
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
well as certain as you can be of something you did not witness ; -)

when I look at the pics of her sailing that pepto bismol pink boat back after the collision it seems pretty clear that there is sail raised up the mast part way still, and the bulk of it is bundled, not flaked all around the boom. I don't think she would have been able to hoist the sail even half way up after the rigging went.


other pics
__________________

__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
jessica watson

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jessica Watson Artful Dodger Cruising News & Events 10 16-06-2010 05:39
Yachting SUCCEED - Jessica Watson surfingminniwinni Cruising News & Events 111 28-10-2009 08:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.