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Old 17-11-2011, 15:10   #46
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

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Originally Posted by alan_za View Post
Well the thing is no one really knows if all these boats did actually hit containers. Could just as well have hit a whale. 20-30 years ago you hit something in the ocean, you assumed it was a whale, today you assume it was a container. I would think that there are far more whales in the ocean then there are containers.
Number (estimated) containers that are lost at sea each year - 10,000.
News Release - MBARI teams with Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary to study effects of shipping containers lost at sea.
Number (estimated) of whales - 800,000/900,000.
Status of whale populations
But I would guess that traveling in shipping lanes, one is still at least as likely to run into the container as the whale. Factor in that a lot of these whale are not ever in areas frequented by cruisers also.
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Old 17-11-2011, 16:15   #47
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

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So let's invent a container with steel bottom and sides, but a soft top. That top can be lifted off by the floaty contents if the container ever gets dumped or swept overboard. The floaty content will still drift around and may present a worry, but the really dangerous steel part should then sink.

Do you think it's worth filing for a patent?

John

Yo! And if you can also develop a soft-topped whale you'll have the market covered.
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Old 17-11-2011, 16:30   #48
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

Has anyone ever built a boat with a sacrificial "crumple zone" piece of material (steel or whatever) on the leading edge of the hull/keel?

Seems that as the incidence of these collisions increases it might be worth considering.

lockie
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Old 17-11-2011, 16:31   #49
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

I have never heard anyone with forward looking sonar installed on their boats say that it is usable at sea. They use it to creep into an anchorage or through a narrow passage at low speed in settled water. Many have said that it would not be possible to use at sea to detect a container or other floating junk.

AussieGeoff, you still have not provided any link or evidence that a steel hulled boat has lost its keel. Every incident of a lost keel that I have seen is on a lightly built fiber glass boat and a few instances of racing boats with lightly built aluminum hulls that have lost their keels in around the world racing. I have never heard of a steel hulled cruising boat losing its keel.
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Old 17-11-2011, 16:52   #50
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

I second Deep Frz. In my opinion you have to work with steel to get a feel for how tough it really is. In the context of smaller size yachts a steel hull is massively strong. My hull bottom is 1/4" thick, with a tensile strength of 60,000 lbs/inch. Keel sides are the same. It will require a force of 60,000 lbs concentrated on a 4" long area to rupture that material. And, because steel has the ability to yield, ie plastically deform and thus spread the load to a greater area, in real life the 60,000 lb load concentrated on a 4"long line will still not rupture the steel, it will instead bend it in and in doing so spread the load over a greater area.

The above mentioned hull bottom/keel is stronger than a container. The material they're built from is much thinner. The container corners are it's strong points. But if you look at the shape of a yacht hull, it's difficult to hit anything floating in the water in other than a glancing manner, unless you have a vertical forward keel face.

My vote if for the steel yacht surviving the encounter, providing that it's hull plating is thick enough.

Paul




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Old 17-11-2011, 17:38   #51
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

My feeling is that hitting a container on the ocean is not in itself going to sink most boats. If you hit it a glancing blow or dead on, the danger is that the boat drops on to the container off a wave. So why collision bulkheads are a good idea they are not fool proof.

Sailing in coastal waters with huge trees floating around many weighing much more than your average container, Hitting one is not fun but rarely results in the sinking of a boat. It is the dead heads that float almost submerged in a top down manner that are scary for the same reason. In rough water comming off a wave and landing on top off an immovable object.

Forward sonar only giving a few seconds? All you need, but not sure they would pick up a floating target?
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Old 21-11-2011, 09:02   #52
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

This is about ten minutes and in a foreign language, but the subtitles are there. It's pointing out that sometimes the cargo isn't harmless, as well as the larger problem of oversight for securing loads.



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Old 05-12-2011, 22:59   #53
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

Cormorant, the crew on Wizard believe they may have hit a container but there was no sudden stop to the yacht's speedy passage and the crew on deck kept sailing unaware of any incident. The boat began filling with water at the rate of about 1 foot every ten seconds according to one crewmember. The incident occurred at about 4.30 am, not long before dawn. Like you it doesn't make much sense to us either. Maybe the water poured in while the boat had momentum, then when the boat stopped perhaps the hole closed partially slowing the water's progress into the boat. The crew were obviously in shock, and even now details are hazy for them. I'll check out what time the boat actually went down. I do know that it had gone to the bottom by the time the ships arrived at 1 p.m. The full story will be in a future issue of Queensland's Bow2Stern magazine.
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Old 14-12-2011, 06:01   #54
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

Small update....

The whole hitting a container scenario has been dismissed, the owner has said it was originally suggested to him that he may have hit a container and that is what he said to the reporters, he said he had no idea at the time but now thinks it may have been a whale after all.....(lottsa whales around this area!)

Woodside/BHP chartered a seismic boat to do a search around the area of the sinking, as it is in an area of numerous oil & gas pipelines and other subsea structures, the search area covered 200 square miles, no container was found, but they did find the Yacht (Ferro) after only 2 hours of bottom scanning.

The yacht was about 150 meters away from a junction in the pipelines and a decision was made to grapnel the wreck and drag it further away for safety, upon snagging the yacht it broke up into three pieces and the whole process took just under 48 hours to do.....

My brother was driving the Rig Tender that snagged the wreck....
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Old 14-12-2011, 07:48   #55
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

A steel boat hitting a container at most will tear a small hole in it, Easily stuffed with rags or whatever to stop the water coming in,
Any other than a real decent hit will only push a dent in the steel hull,

The steel 40 foot cat I was building had 8 water tite bulkheads and was unsinkable unless it got 8 holes in the bottom and 8 holes in the top, Thats 2 holes in each bulkhead, one in the top and a corresponding one in the bottom,
Each bulkhead could keep the entire boat well and truly on the surface,
my entire boat was going to weigh 17 tons Gross, each bulk head could support 20 tons,
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Old 14-12-2011, 08:05   #56
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

Perhaps each shipping container should be armed with a remotely activated explosive charge to blow the doors open so the thing will sink,it would also need a vent on the other end to complete the job, it could be remotely activated by the container ship captain, i would think they know when they loose containers. It should not require large charges if coupled with a different latch design, just enough to blow the latch, our cars that we drive around in are full of explosive charges to activated each of the air bags. Bottom line is that every container that is lost over the side is documented and the shipping companies should be held responsible for them. Years ago i used to rent an old Bomarc missile silo and it had a sacraficial weak spot in the back wall so that if there were to be an explosion in the closed silo it would blow out the black wall rather than the front,something similar could be done in the back end of a container so that once the door is blown the water pressure would blow the weak spot so the air could get out and allow the thing to sink.
Steve.
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Old 29-12-2011, 05:19   #57
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

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Small update....

The whole hitting a container scenario has been dismissed, the owner has said it was originally suggested to him that he may have hit a container and that is what he said to the reporters, he said he had no idea at the time but now thinks it may have been a whale after all.....(lottsa whales around this area!)

Woodside/BHP chartered a seismic boat to do a search around the area of the sinking, as it is in an area of numerous oil & gas pipelines and other subsea structures, the search area covered 200 square miles, no container was found, but they did find the Yacht (Ferro) after only 2 hours of bottom scanning.

The yacht was about 150 meters away from a junction in the pipelines and a decision was made to grapnel the wreck and drag it further away for safety, upon snagging the yacht it broke up into three pieces and the whole process took just under 48 hours to do.....

My brother was driving the Rig Tender that snagged the wreck....
That's interesting; first, that the ferro went down instantly and comprehensively and second, that it broke up so easily when snagged. Must have been some crunch hit - or a scuttling

The initial reports didn't mention the build or design or other detail; wondering, has anyone else seen additional info?
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Old 29-12-2011, 05:42   #58
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

Hmmm ... economy in the toilet, "rich peoples" investment nets egg spiraling downwards, almost impossible to sell a 2nd hand yacht (especially in Australia) ... I'll bet it was fully insured. Seems like the only mistake was not making sure they were off the continental shelf before they "hit the container"

Or am I being too cynical?
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Old 29-12-2011, 05:53   #59
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

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Hmmm ... economy in the toilet, "rich peoples" investment nets egg spiraling downwards, almost impossible to sell a 2nd hand yacht (especially in Australia) ... I'll bet it was fully insured. Seems like the only mistake was not making sure they were off the continental shelf before they "hit the container"

Or am I being too cynical?
Yep - too cynical, apart from have little faith in your fellow man, the more fundamental reason to not go with the insurance job is that ferros are almost impossible to insure.
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Old 29-12-2011, 05:54   #60
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Re: Yacht Sinks Off Western Australia Coast

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That's interesting; first, that the ferro went down instantly and comprehensively and second, that it broke up so easily when snagged.
Lol! do you know what a Rig Tenders Grapnel looks like ?

vvvvv



The one above is only a medium size one and weighs just over 3t, the one on my brothers boat is slightly bigger. You have seen what wrecking balls do to buildings ? after 48 hours of getting bashed around with that, i am more surprised that it wasn't just turned in to dust....
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