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Old 08-06-2011, 13:58   #76
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

As a lifeguard you had the training for the job correct? You knew how to grasp a drowning man so that if they began to struggle they wouldn't pull you down? You maybe even had training in how to recognize the signs of hypothermia and what to do if you detect it?

Again the point here is that that Alameda did not provide training for the professionals to respond to this and without the training ordered them not to respond. So, instead of calling these people out, why don't you explain, with the advantage of your training, at what point would you have stepped in. He doesn't need saving when he's just standing there. If you try to take him out of the water before his life is imminent danger you are assaulting him. I doubt your training included how to safely do that did it? If you wait until he has succumbed it may well be too late.

To put it in other terms, would you subscribe to the comments about the inaction of the professionals, or others, on the scene were it a different scenario. You are in a store and someone pulls a gun. It's a potentially life threatening situation and you, as a lifeguard, are trained to save lives. However, this is not a situation you have any training for. Your interference could cost lives but so could your inaction.

Perhaps all the disparaging comments made about the people at the scene are true but on the other hand unless you were there you don't really know the circumstances and didn't have to make the call.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:57   #77
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Folks,

Please be aware that there are lots of different opinions in this thread and we are all entitled to our own. You may express your opinion and you may query others, but please be aware of the forums ethos of "Be Nice". Also please be aware of the following extracts from our rules:

a. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully.

b. Discussion of politics, weaponry and religion is permitted only in association with the topic of this forum and will be closed or removed if they become disruptive.

The moral dilemma of whether or not individuals should risk there own life to save others against the right to place yourself in danger is clearly an emotive one. You are unlikely to persuade someone to change their view.

Whilst the initial post has little to do with cruising or sailing, the issues it has raised could easily occur in a sailing environment. Since members wish to discuss this, the thread has been returned to the forum.

Please respect others view points.

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Old 09-06-2011, 04:25   #78
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

I think a fundamental difference between someone in the water who clearly wants to be rescued. and someone who doesn't......both "morally" and IMO more importantly in practice.

The morals are simply a result of whatever someone has chosen / was indoctrinated with as a small child. If your morals are offended then that be your problem. Of course part of the fun with morals is imposing them on other people - from the high ground

In practice, and especially that being the USA, I wouldn't be approaching a clearly disturbed individual above asking if he needed any assistance. A negative or incoherent ramble would provide my answer - without getting within grabbing..........or firing distance . I don't fundamentally mind someone going suicide, I just don't intend to be joining 'em........

In regard to the proffessionals and the rules - easy to see that if the rescue went badly and the rescuer was injured (or died) that first step would be to sue the employer. Indeed, would be idiots not to - especially if the family breadwinner is now gone. So, as an Employer if you know that is likely to come down the pipe makes sense to have rules to CYA. and as the money doesn't grow on Trees that would be resources diverted from elsewhere.

The answer is of course that all Suicidal people must be required to wear a PFD when near the water
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:17   #79
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
... As for the good sam act: is for off duty medical and health care and such personnel to cover them from lawsuits of frivolous nature when they voluntarily save someone. Itis not for lay personnel. READ IT. Also, good samaritan act has been tested in court and lost ...
Not quite so.
See California Health and Safety Code 1799.102, which provides that:
"no person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages resulting from any act or omission."

See: California's Good Samaritans Law

And: California's Good Samaritan Protection Act
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:06   #80
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

According to the article, the suicide was calm, looking back at the shore and the people gathered there. Unfortunately, there are no further details.
However, and this was noted by a former professional first responder earlier in this thread, this was a low risk, high reward rescue.
The guy was standing in five feet of water, and calm. You walk out to him, talk to him staying far enough away to ensure your own safety, and if that didn't resolve things, then you wait until he succumbs to the cold, as he did, and haul him in.
NO training required. You could be afraid of the water and still accomplish this. Lifeguard training wasn't required. The ability to walk and talk would seem to be paramount here.
But for the sake of argument, let's put the man on a bridge. Same basic situation, someone considering killing themselves, but in a position from which he/she could be rescued. In that circumstance, the police would have put a trained professional into place to talk the guy down, there would have been nets underneath, the whole mechanism would go into place.
No real difference in the two scenarios, but would those of you arguing against saving this man's life be so cavalier if he was on a bridge, instead of in the water?
My issue is with those who excuse the police and others on the scene for doing nothing, in a situation where, quite possibly, a very small effort might well have saved a life. Held back by policy. They sound like the elephant who is held back by the small rope tied to his ankle, because it was trained with a big rope when young. It doesn't have the intelligence to see that the little (policy) rope is inconsequential against what it has to gain by breaking it.
And then there are those who think the guy has a right to commit suicide. Well, he was depressed, not in charge of his faculties, so that removes his 'right', doesn't it?
It was Cain who said "Am I my brother's keeper?" I can see that the discussion still rages. Sad. One would think that humanity had matured in the last couple of thousand years.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:20   #81
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Quote:
To put it in other terms, would you subscribe to the comments about the inaction of the professionals, or others, on the scene were it a different scenario. You are in a store and someone pulls a gun. It's a potentially life threatening situation and you, as a lifeguard, are trained to save lives. However, this is not a situation you have any training for. Your interference could cost lives but so could your inaction.
Now that comment is the reddest of red herrings I've ever seen hauled aboard any ship.
There is no parallel between the two situations, because in this one, there is the imminent threat of danger posed by the gun, the inherent violence represented by the individual. And, the situation is a criminal one, out of the scope of this discussion. Transposing a lifeguard's training in lifesaving to this situation is a ludicrous argument. In Alameda, there was no threat of danger and, as I've said repeatedly, NO training required.
Walk out, talk to guy, if he doesn't return with you, wait until he succumbs to the cold and then haul him in.
This is NOT rocket science. It's basic human decency.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:19   #82
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by canucksailor View Post
In Alameda, there was no threat of danger
So it transpired. But he could have had a gun, a knife. or a bomb or simply have been intending to collect visitors for Cheeses The thing about nutjobs is that they can be unpredictable and don't always think straight.


Quote:
This is NOT rocket science. It's basic human decency.
I would say it is about basic human survival instinct. Mine not his.

But as I said earlier, if anyone attempts suicide (whether intending to complete or not) then they have to accept some risk that they will end up dead.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:26   #83
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Canuck, you may be right in that no special training is required to rescue someone in five feet of water.

But I think you're forgetting that you are dealing with human beings, not Asimov's Laws of Robotics here.

Consider, five feet of water. The average well-nourished US female may be 5'3, the average US male 5'10. (And that will vary with genetic background, Detroit used to build cars for drivers about 4" taller than Japandid, so the ladies loved Hondas.)

Five feet of water? Over the mouth and nose and scary for women. Up to the chin and scary for many men, since one slip is all it takes to go under. Oddly enough, a lot of folks still don't know how to swim at all, much less perform water rescue. I know two friends who almost drowned in the surf, on crowded beaches, as teens. THEY sure as sure can be, wouldn't walk or swim out into five feet of water, they're afraid of two feet of it. As many people are.

Add the surreal quality of "well, it doesn't seem to disturb the firemen or police...does it?" and now mix in the rubberneck factor, you know, the typical American wants to watch the gore not be a part of it. Do your neighbors have basic first aid training? CPR? Defibrillator? All cheap and easy, but who takes it? Not the masses, sad to say.

So, jump in and interfere when the cops aren't?

Perhaps even more of a challenge if a bystander has had water rescue training, because it teaches you that drowning people may go into a fierce panic and take you with them--unless you're willing able able to literally knock them out and pull them out. Again, are you going to do that when "the authorities" are present, and simply watching??

Then there's the Kitty Genovese effect. When she was brutally murdered in the 60's, claims were that dozens of neighbors heard the screams--but ignored them.

Now, maybe sailors in general are more likely to have situational awareness and step up to offer aid, but a crowd on a beach isn't the same crowd to start with.

A most peculiar situation, and one can only wonder, wtf were they thinking. "They" meaning every last person there, from the responders to the rubbernecks. And somehow, I suspect that the courts have not yet chimed in on this. That kind of public display is often called a "cry for help" by mental health professionals (as opposed to just swimming out at night) and they cry went unanswered by those with a duty to respond, no matter what their departmental policies were.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:55   #84
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Quote:
But he could have had a gun, a knife. or a bomb or simply have been intending to collect visitors for Cheeses The thing about nutjobs is that they can be unpredictable and don't always think straight.
C;mon DOJ - you're playing Devil's advocate here, I know from your posts you're a bright boy.
He was in the water. Bombs and guns tend to work poorly in water or so I'm told. Stand ten feet back from him, the knife is useless.
My point is, and has been all along - no one even tried. What a sad commentary on the human race.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:58   #85
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Hello sailor.....sez....
Quote:
So, jump in and interfere when the cops aren't?
I've jumped into a situation where a guy was about to take on a female cop to stop it.
Since when have the cops been elevated to these heights? They're people, they make mistakes. They made one here, even if their bosses are happy they didn't violate 'policy'.
What a sad word, policy, when it destroys the human spirit.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:02   #86
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by canucksailor View Post
C;mon DOJ - you're playing Devil's advocate here, I know from your posts you're a bright boy.
Get yer coat, you've pulled


Quote:
He was in the water. Bombs and guns tend to work poorly in water or so I'm told.
Apologies if I don't take that at face value.


Quote:
Stand ten feet back from him, the knife is useless.
..........he could have been Ninja trained


Quote:
My point is, and has been all along - no one even tried. What a sad commentary on the human race.
I am most dissapointed that no Youtube
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:09   #87
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
As a lifeguard you had the training for the job correct? You knew how to grasp a drowning man so that if they began to struggle they wouldn't pull you down? You maybe even had training in how to recognize the signs of hypothermia and what to do if you detect it?
The news clip indicates that the first responders did not even go in to pull the body out, it was a civilian. At that point, what danger was there to them?

Obviously we were trained to be a lifeguard. Trained how to avoid struggles, trained to talk to victims (methinks that professional law enforcement gets basic training in talking to potential suicide victims... in fact I know at least 2 police departments that do) and hypothermia is a very basic element of both lifeguard and many first responders training. There is no mystery here.

Quote:
He doesn't need saving when he's just standing there. If you try to take him out of the water before his life is imminent danger you are assaulting him. I doubt your training included how to safely do that did it? If you wait until he has succumbed it may well be too late.
You yourself advised of seeing a situation where a person succumbed to hypothermia, yet was later revived. I believe you said it was a very calm situation watching him as he passed out.

You think a person nearby in the water could not have done anything, just as in the situation you described, and revived the suicidal?
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:10   #88
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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It was Cain who said "Am I my brother's keeper?" I can see that the discussion still rages. Sad. One would think that humanity had matured in the last couple of thousand years.
It is indeed sad... sad for our species. We have not changed one bit since our predecessors huddled in caves. We have just created more subtle ways to be rotten to each other. Being in the existential camp, with absolutely no religious point of view, I view this kind of event as more evidence of the eventual self-destruction of humans. To use nautical terminology, this guy was sending an S.O.S. and no one answered.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:21   #89
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I do have great sympathy for anyone who ends up in that situation - but nonetheless my take is that if you are attempting Suicide then you have to accept some risk.........

and the responsibility for the outcome.
How do we know he did not just have Alzheimers?
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:40   #90
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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How do we know he did not just have Alzheimers?
Or Alquaida?

or both
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