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Old 08-06-2011, 10:19   #61
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by canucksailor View Post
Or has everyone drunk the kool-aid, because that's what it's sounding like.
Just what in hell is wrong with our society?
You seem to have completely missed my point.

It isn't about his right to commit suicide, it's about his right to be standing where he is in the water and about what happens when you wade in to drag him out. You're a lifeguard, someone with the appropriate training for water rescue, even still you'd be going out to "save" someone who is not drowning. He's just standing there. He'd be within his rights to defend himself since you're assaulting him. Perhaps you feel you have the training to safely subdue this man and get him to shore without drowning him, but I doubt you have the legal right.
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:31   #62
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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even still you'd be going out to "save" someone who is not drowning. He's just standing there. He'd be within his rights to defend himself since you're assaulting him.
I didn't miss your point. At some point, this man was clearly in distress, clearly not 'just standing there'. I rather doubt he was standing there, in full command of his faculties in five feet of water and then just keeled over dead. Something went on between his walking into the water, and then lying there face down, dead.
I can't see where it would constitute an assault, btw, to step in to assist someone when they're in trouble, even of their own making. More to the point, 'assaulting' them wouldn't be required, nor would it be wise as that would entail endangering oneself. Lifeguards are trained to protect themselves first and in a situation where the 'victim' is aggressive or panicked, you stay back until s/he either calms down or falls unconscious.
But without details, it's hard to comment beyond saying that at that point, someone should have done something about the situation.
And they didn't. And that is wrong. And THAT is my point.
(for the record, I haven't been qualified as a lifeguard for 30 years)
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:43   #63
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Having seen someone succumb to hypothermia I can tell you it's a very peaceful process and there is no clear point at which it happens. In the case I saw the person had no idea they were hypothermic and the only indication to others was that they simply slipped beneath the water. Even after being pulled out and resuscitated they had no idea it had occurred. They were fortunate to be resuscitated.

Yes, at some point this person would have lost all will but you are claiming a higher moral ground over the people watching and yet I would question their ability, without training, to know when it is time to step in. Hypothermia is a very peaceful death. Once they slip beneath the surface it may well be too late, before it happens you are assaulting someone.

I think rather then painting all those who were there with a brush made from our own superiority it's worth considering the difficulties that can lead to inaction.
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:11   #64
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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but you are claiming a higher moral ground over the people watching
Quote:
I think rather then painting all those who were there with a brush made from our own superiority it's worth considering the difficulties that can lead to inaction.
No one did a damned thing. It's a bit hard not to feel 'superior' under those circumstances, although I don't, I wasn't there. I will say that those people ceded the 'high moral ground'. That's a gimme. Their actions are deserving of scrutiny and yes, censure.
As for training, what training do you need to walk out to five feet of depth and stand there talking to the guy, or if he passes out as he surely did at some point, hauling him back in? Ok, if you're under five feet tall, I'll give you a by on this, but otherwise, there is NO excuse.
How can anyone even BEGIN to argue that these people had the least justification in what they did? Sorry, what they failed to do.
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:14   #65
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

In some countries saving a person that's trying to do them self's in takes on the responsibilities of the person trying to kill them self forever. I can see our country can't afford this action anylonger, it's real sad
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:46   #66
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by canucksailor View Post
No one did a damned thing. It's a bit hard not to feel 'superior' under those circumstances, although I don't, I wasn't there. I will say that those people ceded the 'high moral ground'. That's a gimme. Their actions are deserving of scrutiny and yes, censure.
As for training, what training do you need to walk out to five feet of depth and stand there talking to the guy, or if he passes out as he surely did at some point, hauling him back in? Ok, if you're under five feet tall, I'll give you a by on this, but otherwise, there is NO excuse.
How can anyone even BEGIN to argue that these people had the least justification in what they did? Sorry, what they failed to do.
Let's see if I have your logic right. You're going to wade into the water and wait for hypothermia to over take this guy because you are immune to hypothermia yourself? You might be able to recognize the signs of its onset and plan on wading in to grab him at some point where his will is to resist is gone but he can still be resuscitated but keep in mind that a lack of training is what is at the heart of this story.
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:55   #67
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

I reiterate - no one did a damned thing. Does no one feel shame about that?
As for the hypothermia issue, I'd rather be cold and risk my own life than have to look in the mirror at some guy who didn't/wouldn't try to save some guy's life.
You know, I'm not going to argue this any further. My point is clear and I am not going to waste any more time with anyone who cannot see it. It's pretty obvious, or so I would have thought.
With all due respect to those who don't/can't/won't see what I'm getting at, I feel sorry for you. You need to rethink how you view the world and your basis for evaluating what goes on in it.
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:01   #68
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

I know I said I wasn't going to argue this any further, and I'm not. But here is some data from Boating & Hypothermia - BoatSafe.com about hypothermia.
Survival time in 50° - 60° water is 1 - 6 hours. Exhaustion/unconscious time is 1 - 2 hours.
I think that says it all. Lots of time to save the man's life. There are no excuses left.
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:47   #69
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

I have continued to follow this dialogue and feel empelled to respond again. The point being made by Canucksailor and others is that the situation should not be one of codified, government sanctioned response, but rather personal HUMAN responsibility. It is a response based upon your personal ethic in re: human life and we all bring a different ethic to the table. When Hummingway states that we are claiming a "higher moral ground" he is absolutely correct because his attitude of indifference or fear of response for legal reasons (a responder's "ability without training") is the lower moral ground since its focus is solely self serving with no caring or compassion for anyone other than yourself. This is a problem we are experiencing to a great degree in our civilization and it does bespeak the destruction and disintegration of the HUMAN connection with our fellow man. As a young boy growing up in Chicago, I remember driving with my father through a crime ridden area and seeing an old man being beaten up in an alley by four teenage boys. I remember how bad I felt and told my father what was happening. He abruptly stopped the car, turned around and began attacking the youths until they ran away. At the time, my father was a strong, athletic man who grew up in the streets of Chicago and showed no fear when someone was in need of help. I am convinced he saved the old man's life. and, as an adult, I have often revisited that scene and remembered my father's selfless compassion for another person. But, the real point of the story is that even when my father was old and feeble, his response would have been the same. It was who he was. I believe culture teaches us how to live, but I also believe people are hardwired at birth with an ethical sense of right and wrong and we all have met those people in our lives. And in the great civilizations that have existed throughout millennia, the reason for their greatness was a preponderance of people who shared a common goal and ethic. This is what I believe is lacking in our society today when people are motivated more by self interest than the common good. I suppose we could continue this argument ad nauseum without resollve but one point is clear: we all have choices in life and the choices we make illustrate who we are as individuals. I hope one day I can help another person as my father did--instinctively, without deliberation and with the sole purposeof helping another in need. Good luck and good sailing, Ron
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:57   #70
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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I reiterate - no one did a damned thing. Does no one feel shame about that?
As for the hypothermia issue, I'd rather be cold and risk my own life than have to look in the mirror at some guy who didn't/wouldn't try to save some guy's life.
You know, I'm not going to argue this any further. My point is clear and I am not going to waste any more time with anyone who cannot see it. It's pretty obvious, or so I would have thought.
With all due respect to those who don't/can't/won't see what I'm getting at, I feel sorry for you. You need to rethink how you view the world and your basis for evaluating what goes on in it.
Ya know, I agree whole-heartedly with you. There were a bunch of people "there for the show". Nice to know they have a warm spot in the afterlife waiting for them for being so bureaucratic in their rescue procedure.
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Old 08-06-2011, 13:22   #71
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Compassion is apparently reserved for someone who is trying to kill themselves and none can be expressed for the people whose job it is to risj=k their own lives andlive up to the expectations of others in that reguard and yet aren't given the training required. Compassion must come from a very shallow cup indeed.

There's nothing like a group of armchair super heroes for setting the record straight.
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Old 08-06-2011, 13:29   #72
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Compassion is apparently reserved for someone who is trying to kill themselves and none can be expressed for the people whose job it is to risj=k their own lives andlive up to the expectations of others in that reguard and yet aren't given the training required. Compassion must come from a very shallow cup indeed.

There's nothing like a group of armchair super heroes for setting the record straight.
As a former lifeguard who had to take part in a body recovery, I can tell you that I have NO understanding of the "professionals" who did not respond appropriately.

Kindly save the "armchair etc." comments for other situations... they do not apply here. This is not a personal attack, it is however, a suggestion to obfuscate the situation by sidetracking is probably as armchair as it gets.
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Old 08-06-2011, 13:33   #73
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

ok, gloves off time.
Quote:
There's nothing like a group of armchair super heroes for setting the record straight.
Since there were no superheroes at the scene, we'll have to make do with what we have here. Sounds to me like you would have been right at home in the crowd, watching that man die.
Quote:
yet aren't given the training required.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no training required to walk out into five feet of water. If I'm wrong, please please correct me.
Quote:
Compassion must come from a very shallow cup indeed.
What? Like the compassion you would offer a mentally ill man? Letting him choose to die is compassion? What sort of warped mentality do you function with?
Quote:
none can be expressed for the people whose job it is to risj=k their own lives
There was no compassion required, they did NOTHING. ZIP. NADA. What part of this don't you get? Someone died because of their lack of action, and you talk about 'compassion' for them?

There's nothing like some new age moralist dissecting and explaining why a failure to act with human and loving compassion constitutes a viable and effective way to comport oneself.
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Old 08-06-2011, 13:38   #74
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

"Armchair Super Heroes"

Ever since the day some joker crazy glued the JLA into their chairs during the monthly board meeting, they've been flying around in armchairs. Like Wonder Woman's invisible airplane, just without the wings and all.

"Armchair Super Heroes"
Oh wait, no, did you mean the ones who don't fly around at all (air traffic controll NIGHTMARE that is, superman please vector oh nine zero and ascend angels five zero zero) but remain in their lairs and use telekinetic powers to fight evil?

Really, hummingway, thank you for the plethora of good cartoon images that turn of phrase provides.

Apparently you're stuck in the Western Judeo-Christian structure on suicide, because in some cultures, in many other cultures, it would be polite to not flock around and not interfere but to give the man some privacy.

And if he were committing ritual sepuku, it would be both an honor and sacred obligation for someone to stand behind him with a sword as his second, to cut off his head and end his pain if he screwed it up. The closest we come to that in the "JC West" is taking the dog to the vet if it has to be put down. One might say, not quite the same. Or not, depends on how you feel about furpeople.

In others, they would be most insistent that if you save his life--you are forever responsible for him afterwards. Are you willing to assume that mantle too?

Fascinating to see how most of the views here are filtered by only and exactly one cultural tradition. And a fairly "new" culture, compared to many, at that.
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Old 08-06-2011, 13:38   #75
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Hummingway, your 'credo' in the signature line:
Quote:
“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”
Please remove it. The dead man was fighting the hardest battle of all, against his own mind. You comments deny any 'kindness' on your part.
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