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Old 02-06-2011, 17:04   #31
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by Triton318 View Post
I know many firefighters and law enforcement officers and I can assure you that "cowardice" is not a personality characteristic these people normally possess. But I will say that "ignorance" is one that applies well to you.
If it isn't cowardice, than what is it? Stupidity? inhumanity?

Obvioulsy, this behaviour can be described by some adverb. Compassion doesn't seem to fit. What word do you think would work?

If it was a loved one of your's what word would you use as you stood there and watched?
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Old 02-06-2011, 17:26   #32
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

It's not just Ca. There is a show called WHAT WOULD YOU DO? It shows situations where people are in harms way. It is staged, but many people just turn their heads, or walk on by. It is shot around the country, so that kind of throws the Ca post out the window, it's people........i2f
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Old 04-06-2011, 14:49   #33
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

I am quite shocked by the majority of responses to this story--many of which justify inaction to help another person in distress based upon job description,lack of proper equipment, legal concerns, jurisdiction, or simply not wanting to get involved. This is another example of the decline of our culture when we as human beings have lost our connection to others and would rather stand by and watch another's imminent death as dispassionately as we watch a mindless sitcom, detective trama , life in the ER or video game. Have we regressed so far that the life of another human being has no consequence? Have we lost all sense of duty, compassion and ethics? The distinction between Civilization and Anarchy is the difference between compassion for others and self interest at all costs. We ought to be ashamed for our culture and our country that something like this could ever happen. They say in life "what goes around, comes around." Is that where we are headed as a nation and a people? Ron
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Old 04-06-2011, 15:28   #34
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

I was glad to see Lat38 really gave Alameda a kick in the back!..........i2f
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Old 04-06-2011, 15:29   #35
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

If he was hollering for help, waving his arms or clearly in distress, someone/anyone whether firefighters, police, bystanders or just strollers on the beach should have rushed to his aid, policy and rules be damned. But if the individual was clearly trying to do himself in, who the hell gives any of us the right to intervene. Hyperbole about maybe he was unbalanced, maybe he wasn't thinking straight, maybe we have a duty to save every single individual who just can't stand it anymore, maybe... maybe... maybe.
I'm not sure where we lost the right of self determination and responsiblilty for our own actions but it sounds like this bird clearly wanted to depart this world. What right do any of us have to stand in his way. If I wanted to do myself in, I would be forever pissed at the individual who stood in my way and would try it again at the earliest oportunity. We should spend more time trying to help those who really want a hand and need someone to give them help... just my opinion... Capt Phil
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Old 04-06-2011, 15:34   #36
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
I am quite shocked by the majority of responses to this story--many of which justify inaction to help another person in distress based upon job description,lack of proper equipment, legal concerns, jurisdiction, or simply not wanting to get involved. This is another example of the decline of our culture when we as human beings have lost our connection to others and would rather stand by and watch another's imminent death as dispassionately as we watch a mindless sitcom, detective trama , life in the ER or video game. Have we regressed so far that the life of another human being has no consequence? Have we lost all sense of duty, compassion and ethics? The distinction between Civilization and Anarchy is the difference between compassion for others and self interest at all costs. We ought to be ashamed for our culture and our country that something like this could ever happen. They say in life "what goes around, comes around." Is that where we are headed as a nation and a people? Ron
Here's a perfect opportunity for you to live your words. You can send the money needed for the training to the appropriate people and the next time a politician says they are going to cut taxes speak out and say no.
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Old 04-06-2011, 15:44   #37
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Here's a perfect opportunity for you to live your words. You can send the money needed for the training to the appropriate people and the next time a politician says they are going to cut taxes speak out and say no.

I thought you didn't want this to become political? Ron
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Old 04-06-2011, 15:45   #38
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

You going to go out, and do it in public, or do it in the dark somewhere where you are alone. I understand someone wanting to take their life, but that's a private matter. My step-father was one hell of a man in my life. He was terminally ill, and refused to live with his declining health. He drove out to a country road where no one could see, and took his life. Now that is some one determined, rightfully so, and sane.

Why not break out some hotdogs, and popcorn with something to flush it all down with. Make a little money during the side show. There was no charge for the show, so why not spend a little for refreshments. Sometimes people just don't know where to turn when there seems like there is no hope.

How about the guy who jumped from the GG Bridge 20 years ago. Half way down he thought well, this is a bad idea. He lived, and went onto lead a productive life. Drugs liquor, and other losses lead him to the bridge with a bad idea. Maybe we should've just held him under when he surfaced? If I remember correctly he became a suicicde counselor.........i2f

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Old 04-06-2011, 15:59   #39
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

All too often I see the CYA rule in effect. Right & wrong don't apply, just CYA. If there's a regulation that can prevent something, anything from happening then that's good enough for most people now.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:49   #40
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

I am a first responder. The good Samaritan law for the most part does cover professionals although only off duty, and as long as they act in a reasonable fashion within their scope of practice, and in a similar manner to another similarly trained person would do under the same circumstances.

As to protocol..... I ask any of you: Would you voluntarily quit your career... Not just your job, but your career... To go do something you were untrained for and specifically disallowed by protocol, to save a person who willingly put themselves in a situation?

I have tossed the rules out twice in my 23 years, and got in some serious trouble for doing so.... My career being saved solely because of the negative press the department would have endured for firing me. Would I do it again? Dunno, but the cases are always different somehow; what makes one worth it and one not is a personal call. There ARE circumstances where I'll toss my career to effect a rescue... BUT they are damned few and far between.... Attempted suicide is NOT one of them!
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:05   #41
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

A strange and most disturbing incident. Alameda, not SF. Posted swimming beach, not SF bay in general.

So you have a "swimmer" doing nothing illegal...but he's obviously an emotionally disturbed person ("EDP" in police-speak) and committing suicide is usually against the law in the US, I'd have to rashly presume that applies in Cali and Alameda as well. Not to mention, drowning would be a MARPOL violation giving the USCG some right to respond.

Cali being Cali...haven't there been any lawuits, wrongful death suits, negligence suits, any legal followups to this incident by now? OTOH he got what he wanted without interference, OTOH as they say, a society will be judged by how it treats those who cannot care for themselves, including EDPs.
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:10   #42
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Latest news...
alameda drowning - Google News
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:18   #43
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
If he was hollering for help, waving his arms or clearly in distress, someone/anyone whether firefighters, police, bystanders or just strollers on the beach should have rushed to his aid, policy and rules be damned. But if the individual was clearly trying to do himself in, who the hell gives any of us the right to intervene. Hyperbole about maybe he was unbalanced, maybe he wasn't thinking straight, maybe we have a duty to save every single individual who just can't stand it anymore, maybe... maybe... maybe.
I'm not sure where we lost the right of self determination and responsiblilty for our own actions but it sounds like this bird clearly wanted to depart this world. What right do any of us have to stand in his way. If I wanted to do myself in, I would be forever pissed at the individual who stood in my way and would try it again at the earliest oportunity. We should spend more time trying to help those who really want a hand and need someone to give them help... just my opinion... Capt Phil
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:02   #44
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

capngeo,

I think you answered my response. It seems you have more compassion than those who stood by. Sometimes you just have to break the rules.

To those willing to stand by, and watch a stranger die. Are you willing to watch your own child die? Would you want someone to save them? This person is someone`s child too.......i2f
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:36   #45
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Re: Water Rescue Failure - SF

Given that a large percentage of towns and cities in Cali are on the verge of bankruptcy, I'm not surprised at this. The money has to come from somewhere to pay for all this stuff and its not happening anymore. Housing values are in the dumpster, foreclosures are skyrocketing, as is unemployment. Corporations pay little or no tax, homeowners can't afford it and people vote for no more taxes. This is rampant everywhere.

Not only can the city not pay for the training, they have to take an active stance against any chance of legal repercussions. So we end up where we are now. Ask yourself which is more important. Keeping cops and firemen on the job or laying off some of them so others can have more training. At some point you will have a hand full of people who are amazingly well trained but can't respond because there are not enough of them.

As for it being suicide, I firmly believe that people have a right to end their lives. No one else has any say so about it. Not your family, nor your preacher, nor the politicians in city hall or on the hill. Only you have the right to decide your fate. Now if the fellow was only grandstanding hoping to get some help, then he waited too long to decide to come back in. That's his problem. But it appears he wasn't doing that as he never called for help if the reports are correct. If he was serious, then he got what he desired. The way things are going around the World I'd expect that the numbers of suicides are climbing but its not being reported. Things are only getting worse. We can go around whistling past the graveyard all we want, but that's the way it is.

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