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Old 25-12-2015, 11:45   #106
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Why thank you. Well, ok, since you ask, I am not completely defenceless, nor have I failed to think about it.

There are multiple layers of defence:

1. As you can see from these photos, I ostentatiously take photos of any vessel which is manuevering to intercept, or is close in a slightly odd fashion. This shows them that I have taken note, and if boarded, I would simply inform them that photos of their vessel have already been sent to friends and authorities etc. Which they may have been…

2. I carry several hundred meters of 3 and 4mm dyneema line aboard, capable of being trailed behind the boat and also launched out the sides in 30 meter lengths (wrapped around weighted cork balls) with a "wild sling". These are effective prop tanglers. Floating, and stronger than steel.

3 .I have a 7500 volt electric fence (agricultural), which I can rapidly mount on standoffs around the whole vessel, 2 rails. Believe me, touch that, and you won't try to touch it again. Nonlethal though, just an agricultural fence. I use that if anchored in certain spots or traversing certain areas. Not that night in Borneo, as it happened, though.

4. I have battery driven all weather PIRs and a VERY loud alarm which is located up the mast, and activates powerful spreader lights at the same time. Again, I use these only if I feel the need, which is not often.

5. I have what you might call an "area denial tool" aboard, which is basically pepper spray/cs, which is essentially useless above decks, but is very effective indeed in an enclosed space. I also have vapour masks and goggles for crew.

6. As a last resort there are more basic defenses of the hand to hand, and also of the standoff kind, dotted about the place. But I consider this an outside and remote eventuality.

7. Finally and most importantly, I have an open mind and show the world a calm and friendly face. I have found that to be the best defence of all, in uncertain situations.

I do not carry firearms. I am not "anti gun" in the sense that some may think, nor a "wussy". Actually I am a pretty reasonable shot with a pistol, both auto and revolver (preference for an auto .40 if curious), and not a bad one with a repeating longarm or shotgun. Better still with a scoped rifle. However after long consideration I think they are far more trouble than they are worth, and more likely to lead to pointless deadly confrontation than to avoid it, as the fantasies of "shooting engine blocks" or using "molotov cocktails" which inevitably pop up on these threads show so very clearly.
Best contribution to this thread

I especially like the prop fouling tactic.

Merry Christmas!
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Old 25-12-2015, 11:48   #107
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Ray. You are a misguided ........ These cockroaches need to be exterminated. Your friendly Arabs are cutting the throats of non believers, raping and murdering, enslaving women and children. You probably missed seeing their propaganda video of them cutting off the heads of those christians on the beach. You also probably missed seeing them burning alive their prisoners. And you probably missed hearing about the terror attacks against civilians in Paris and Colorado. The USA has a lot to be proud of. Liberating most of Europe from Hitler. Holding back the dictatorial and despotic Soviets from enslaving more people around the world. Providing more charity and assistance to the people than any other nation on earth combined.

I'm an Australian and a permanent legal resident of the USA. I am very thankful to the USA in saving my home country from the Japanese and very happy to have a home in the greatest freedom loving democracy in the World, the United States of America.

It takes a special kind of person to call the good guys the bad guys and the evil doers the innocent. You sir have have become the lowest form of humanity in my eyes. I for one would shun you and have nothing to do with you. You and your comments are despicable.

I owe you a beer mister. thanx
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Old 25-12-2015, 11:54   #108
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

So you are anti-Gun but pro flame thrower?
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:11   #109
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

You can make an awesome golf ball cannon with schedule 80 pvc. With a lil practice you can hit a person at 30 yds. If that don't deter him use your 12 gauge flare pistol with the phosphorus flare. At least you got a "go to".
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:24   #110
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Originally Posted by Thumbs Up View Post
Can we talk about Molotov Cocktails on this thread? ...
As incendiary devices, Molotov cocktails are illegal to manufacture or possess in many regions. Their use against people is typically covered under a variety of charges, including battery, actual or grievous bodily harm, manslaughter, attempted murder, and murder, depending upon their effect and upon local laws. Their use against property is usually covered under arson charges. In the United States, Molotov cocktails are considered "destructive devices" and regulated by the ATF.

However, just to maintain my security system*, I’ll post this:
How to Make a Molotov cocktail with gasoline « Explosives & Fireworks

* My neighbors and I were so fed-up with being constantly burglarized, that I decided to disconnect my alarm system and security cameras.

I also sacked the security guy who obviously was not doing his job as he should have.

Subsequently I hanged 3 flags in my garden: the Afghan one, another one of Pakistan and the flag of the Islamic State.

We are now constantly watched by the Army, the local Police, sheriff, FBI, CIA, NSA, Homeland Security, the Secret Services and Interpol, and other agencies

They follow my wife to wherever she goes and my daughter is also constantly under surveillance when she goes to school and when she comes back home.

24/7, 365 days a year, they follow me to my office and back home.

I have never felt so safe before!
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:26   #111
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Originally Posted by Saleen411 View Post
Best contribution to this thread

I especially like the prop fouling tactic.

Merry Christmas!
Thank you. One I developed over a fair while of thought and experimentation. Happy to share, as I think it is a good defense capable of disabling a pursuing vessel in a manner which will not invite further hostility.
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:26   #112
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
So your commonsense tells you to shoot:

1 When you see a boatload of men coming towards you
2 When you see a boatload of men coming towards you and they are armed
3 When you see a boatload of men coming towards you armed and pointing their weapons at you.

1 and 2 could be fishermen, in many parts of the world. 1, 2 and 3 could be police in many parts of the world, even if they are in a crappy boat and do not appear to be wearing uniforms. So… which do you pick? Any?

And what would you fire at them with? A pistol? A shotgun? An AR15? If they have 5 AK47s? Good idea? You need to plug some reality into the fantasy, partcularly as VERY FEW YACHTS ARE EVER ATTACKED BY ARMED MEN, WORLDWIDE, and it is highly illegal to carry firearms in many parts of the world.
Not what I said. Lol, you're delusional.
Where is the ignore button. LOL
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:29   #113
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Originally Posted by powsmias View Post
I owe you a beer mister. thanx
Well I joined this forum to talk about things like sail trim, anchoring and enjoying sailing etc.

What do I get but a load of red necks who want to shoot or burn to death anybody they don't like the look of.

I could make lots of comments but really do not want to become more involved. I have sailed in the States, the Carib and Europe extensivley. The vast majority of Americans that I have met have been charming and good company.

However the gung hoe attitude of some of the posters on this thread is frankly frightening to people over here in Europe.

I do not need to be reminded of the atrocities being carried out in the name of so called ISSIS, or any body else. We have more access to news than CNN.

I am now terminating not only this thread, but this site as I am sure that YOUR CIA & FBI are monortring it and I may never be allowed into your country again.

Cest la Vie
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:34   #114
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Maybe if people like you and your arrogant nation stopped sending missiles and drones from somewhere over the horizon to kill thousands of innocent Arabs the planet would be afar safer place. You have little to be proud of as a nation. Stay in your own back yard and the rest of the world might eventually get back to normal.
Now this thread is getting out of control... please keep this type of garbage to yourself.

To make a comment such as this is beyond poor taste and only reflects on you and your warped perspective.

You are beyond disgusting...
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:36   #115
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Well I joined this forum to talk about things like sail trim, anchoring and enjoying sailing etc.

What do I get but a load of red necks who want to shoot or burn to death anybody they don't like the look of.

I could make lots of comments but really do not want to become more involved. I have sailed in the States, the Carib and Europe extensivley. The vast majority of Americans that I have met have been charming and good company.

However the gung hoe attitude of some of the posters on this thread is frankly frightening to people over here in Europe.

I do not need to be reminded of the atrocities being carried out in the name of so called ISSIS, or any body else. We have more access to news than CNN.

I am now terminating not only this thread, but this site as I am sure that YOUR CIA & FBI are monortring it and I may never be allowed into your country again.

Cest la Vie
Don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out! Good riddance!
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:41   #116
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
That story and the Peter Blake tragedy are two of the more important incidents which make it clear that keeping a firearm aboard does not make you safer. In either case had a firearm not been presented the presenter of that arm would not have been killed.

Nobody can say that for sure. If they were willing to kill someone just for coming on deck with a gun, they were prepared to kill for any number of reasons. That was a poorly planned move on her part, unfortunately. She should have stayed below and monitored the situation out of sight with the gun trained on the suspected bad guys.

As we agreed, a gun is just a tool, in case it's necessary. I look at it just like I would an EPIRB, life raft, flare gun or insurance. I hope and pray I never have to use any of them, but it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.



In any case, sailing up one or more rivers in Borneo SHOULD be on your bucket list! Totally wonderful experience… if they could only stop burning the place down. But there are still substantial areas of virgin jungle left… for how long? I don't know. But I intend to head back there soon, again.

If someone posted that they carried no EPIRB, life raft, flare gun, insurance, fire extinguisher or bilge pump on board, would you call them a genius? Well prepared? A fool?

When I was on subs in the Navy, we drilled for every possible contingency. Fire, flooding, collision, heart attack, chemical, biological or nuclear attack, runaway torpedo, OTTO fuel II spill, repel boarders, infiltration with fake ID, CO or XO under duress, attempted theft of "special weapons", radioactive material spill, reactor coolant leak, loss of depth control, propulsion or steering, battle stations, etc.

The one thing we never drilled for was piracy, and yet we were attacked by pirates in the Straits of Malacca in 1989! It started with them calling for help on Ch16 in the middle of the night. We responded but they wouldn't identify themselves. Radar indicated it was a steel vessel, possibly 60-85 ft long (later I felt it may have been an old PT boat or something similar) dead in the water.

We changed course to intercept and lend assistance, but just before the lookout could get a good look at them, they sped up to what I would guess is flank (well over 30 kts) and came straight towards us. The lookout and OOD in the sail reported hearing "tinking" noises and were trying to figure out what it was when they realized it was small arms fire bouncing off of the HY80 steel of the hull. Once we realized these guys had no idea they were shooting at a nuclear powered sub (our light configuration is kind of unusual) we started wondering what we should do about them.

The CO said we had nothing proportional to use. Couldn't use torpedos, Tomahawks or Subrocs, and we didn't want anyone standing above the sail cowling shooting an M-16, so the OOD and lookout stayed hunched down in the sail listening to bullets zing off the sail. Once they realized what we were (I think), they broke off and headed for shore. We submitted a sitrep to the battle group, and I later heard that squadron had issued more M-16s and grenade launchers to the other boats.


I've learned many things in my time, and some of them reinforced the fact that you can never say never, the truth is quite often stranger than fiction and it's better to be well equipped than under equipped, since nothing ever breaks if you bring the spare parts to fix it. LOL

By that logic, just bringing a gun will ensure that you never have to use it. (I'm joking!)

But I am very serious about the fact that I grew up in the age of, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." The stick of course was nuclear deterrence, which we still maintain globally to this day, but the same can be said with the weapon of your choice. I'm not Bruce Lee, so I need to rely on a weapon that I'm good with.
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:43   #117
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

These threads would be a lot more useful if they could be confined to a reporting of the actual incident and then maybe a practical discussion of the pros & cons of various defensive measures, including but not limited to firearms. To this end, I wanted to thank Muckle for his excellent post sharing some of the sensible defensive measures he's taken on his extensive world travels.

I also think Muckle's comments surrounding the difficulty if not impossibility of ascertaining a potential attacker's intentions at sea are well taken. I gather that some on here think it will be the Somalian pirate scenario you see on youTube with bad guys in fast boats brandishing AK-47's. The more likely scenario (in the highly unlikely event something happens at all), however, will be a local fish boat or maybe someone feigning distress. There have been many other threads with sailors who frequent Caribbean & other waters describing how routine it is for locals to approach a yacht wanting to sell or trade fish for cigarettes, beer, marijuana, etc. How would you know before it might be too late, especially given the very slim odds it's an attacker vs. an innocent party?

I have training & a high comfort level with firearms, but it's mainly the potential & actual hassle factor most everywhere in the world except (parts of) the US & the Bahamas that finally convinced me it would be a bad idea to have them onboard if/when I extend my cruising boundaries. Despite a scary incident sailing the Bahamas Banks a few years ago when I was thankful I had a firearm onboard, it was the many experienced world traveling sailors like Muckle & many others who convinced me that the cost/benefit wasn't worth it. As someone else mentioned, it's a similar cost/benefit you'd do for other equipment you choose to have onboard but hope to never have to use.

But as Lizzy keeps trying to point out, to each his or her own, provided you've done your homework on the laws & procedures in various ports of call, honestly examined your own willingness to use lethal force and under what circumstances, and thoroughly considered the potential consequences. There are tons of threads on the more practical side of the issue, but unfortunately most get infused with the much broader debate b'twn. those who like/hate guns generally, and then of course the politics (and thus often get closed down). There is also a gun owners sub-forum here on CF which may help.
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:55   #118
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
As incendiary devices, Molotov cocktails are illegal to manufacture or possess in many regions. Their use against people is typically covered under a variety of charges, including battery, actual or grievous bodily harm, manslaughter, attempted murder, and murder, depending upon their effect and upon local laws. Their use against property is usually covered under arson charges. In the United States, Molotov cocktails are considered "destructive devices" and regulated by the ATF.

However, just to maintain my security system*, I’ll post this:
How to Make a Molotov cocktail with gasoline « Explosives & Fireworks

* My neighbors and I were so fed-up with being constantly burglarized, that I decided to disconnect my alarm system and security cameras.

I also sacked the security guy who obviously was not doing his job as he should have.

Subsequently I hanged 3 flags in my garden: the Afghan one, another one of Pakistan and the flag of the Islamic State.

We are now constantly watched by the Army, the local Police, sheriff, FBI, CIA, NSA, Homeland Security, the Secret Services and Interpol, and other agencies

They follow my wife to wherever she goes and my daughter is also constantly under surveillance when she goes to school and when she comes back home.

24/7, 365 days a year, they follow me to my office and back home.

I have never felt so safe before!
HA! That was great!

Btw, a lot of people talked about their flare guns, but it's my understanding that they are a lot less lethal than one might think (or at least I did), and also illegal to have onboard (believe it or not) in many countries. Maybe someone can comment. But perhaps there's some utility in using them as a signaling/alarm device, kinda like Muckle's use of high-powered spreader lights & alarms?
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:56   #119
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

I think some valid points have been brought up regarding security, and possible situations for an unknown approaching vessel. I am a gun person and have collected them, used them hunted with them, and am proficient with them.
I keep going back to even If I am right is defending our "stuff" with lethal force is it worth the potential consequences?. We are insured, I would give up my laptops, electronics etc gladly to avoid a year of jail, losing my vessel etc. As pointed out most criminals dont want to hurt you they just want your stuff. Yes there are cases to prove the opposite, but they are fewer in frequency. Everything in life is a gamble, everyone must choose their own path. My reason for starting this thread is continual awareness that there are risks out there, and As someone heading 9ut there soon, want to be aware as to not be too lax. I am sorry it has disintegrated into a mix of ill feelings, ,disagreements and combativeness. Every time there is a post about a crime against cruisers it turns into a gun debate.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 25-12-2015, 12:57   #120
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Re: Vessel boarded and robbed between Trinidad and Grenada

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Meanwhile all the "wussies" continue to sail to all those places that the gun totin' folk cleaning and caressing their weapon fantasies mostly only dream of…

The proportion of serious adventure cruising sailors exploring the world who carry guns and entertain ridiculous fantasies of throwing fuel bombs at people while at sea to those who just sail without fear is tiny. As is the number of incidents worldwide in any year. And how many successfully defend themselves with their beloved weapons, eh? But by all means continue to peer at the world overtop of your weapons and your fears.

And have a Merry Xmas.
Give them a break, MF, the yanks are running scared shitless right now, paranoia rules their world
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