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Old 07-05-2010, 22:27   #76
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So I guess this means corporations as well. "Even at the expense of the environment". I don't think that is realism, I think its "elitism".

Reminds me of a time while canoeing the Churchill River and we came upon bridge construction on a road to a uranium mine. There was a First Nations man filling a water truck. I egoistically said something like "hey, what are you guys doing to my wilderness?". He said something like "what do you mean your wilderness?".

Who's world is this anyway? Don't we all have to live here? Should someone just because of some good fortune or accident of birth be able to destroy OUR planet at their whim? Now scale that up to nations.
This is the attitude exactly that I find amusing. Do you know what a corporation is? A corporation is nothing more than an individual or group of people operating under certain legal protections. Do you like to eat food? Do you think food grows itself? Do you really believe we can all grow our food in our backyards? Did you know an heirloom tomato is nutritionally equivalent to a corporate farmed tomato, but requires something like 9-50 times the acreage? Know who feeds the world? It's corporations. Do you think all that pretty produce in the farmers market in NYC gets there by winged unicorns? It arrives by cargo ships, spewing waste across the oceans, it arrives by rail, it arrives by truck. Nothing is quite as pure as we'd like to believe it is. Yes, I am babbling.

How on earth is it elitist for me to think that developing nations should utilize their own environment for their own people? Seems like you're the elitist, typing on your petrochemical device that everyone else should change to suit your view of how the world should work.
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Old 07-05-2010, 22:45   #77
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I suppose to try and relate this to you...say you play some adult league softball with your team and about 400 local people on different teams. Say you are the definitively best player in the whole league. If I were to ask you if you were good at that sport, you would say "of course, I'm the best in my league" and then if I were thinking like you I'd respond like this: Actually, I'm amused you're being so smug. For convenience sake lets put everyone on a scale from 1-100. Stephen Hawking is 1 and the best player who ever lived and ever will live is 100. You, the best guy in the league are about a 70, the worst guy in your league is a 60. I think it's funny that you talk about being good when there is really only a marginal difference between the both of you.
I'd entirely agree with your scenario. I'd also considering myself an idiot if I was all smug about being the best softball player in the beer league. I'd take some individual pride at having done my best in a given situation, but I'm also cognizant of the fact that I'm still in the beer league. Worthy of smugness on my part, not really.

If you're the greenest boater on this forum, you're still in the beer league. Personally, I don't mind being in the beer league in this situation. Comparing the standard of living today, compared to even 200 years ago, and I flat out wouldn't have enjoyed the short average lifespan, the amount of effort it took to survive, the sanitary conditions and a host of other problems. If I wanted to live in the woods, off the grid, I suppose that I could, but that's not a solution for the billions already on the planet.

Night folks, rest well.
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Old 08-05-2010, 04:41   #78
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Bit disappointed we still haven't found a proper young earth creationist tea party type to turn up to this discussion

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I further believe that every person (regardless of whether or not they live in an industrial nation) should have the right (in the very loose sense of the word) to pursue better conditions for themselves, even at the expense of the environment.
That's exactly what's going on essentially, and it's making life on this planet untenable for a lot of species already, and perhaps at the end of the day even humans, and yes, that includes western consumers.

I think future generations, if we manage to survive, won't look particularly kindly upon the culture that diminished the natural resources at our disposal now for them, I think they will regard us as barbarians, and quite rightly so. The fact that we're burning off all the oil in a few generations is really and absolute embarrassment and a testament to human stupidity.

You do have an ecological footprint, and some people calculate their carbon impact even. If you do not fly and don't have a car with a 4 litre engine or no car at all, and a sailboat, your footprint is going to be vastly different to the average consumer type driving around in circles between office, mall & suburbs, and I'm not talking about "50s and 60s" here. That still applies if your 4 hp outboard is two stroke and dripping oil everywhere. And no, we don't have to live like tribal types on Pacific islands at all.

I am extremely pessimistic about the chances of cultural change & human survival, like in the cartoon linked above, I think the problem will solve itself - after all, nature is a self-regulating system.
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Old 08-05-2010, 06:52   #79
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Originally posted by SabreKai: I'm past being outraged. I'm seriously hoping that Mother Nature takes a hand in drasticly reducing the population of this planet.
Oh, she will. Maybe to a much lower level than you think "would be nice".

I find it interesting that we are such clever animals in our invention of and use of tools and yet when it comes to population control we are pushing ourselves off a metaphorical cliff. In some ways brilliant, in other ways no smarter than the Lemming (or bacteria for that matter).

Oh no, that woman that once called me "pond scum" was right...
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Old 08-05-2010, 06:52   #80
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I'm only semi gloomy about the future of mankind. But I do have some hope, even within my lifetime there have been huge strides in education, law enforcement, and technology, at least in parts of the world. The parts of the world that are still struggling to survive and enter the industrial age will of course lag behind in environmental issues. There has also been a whole lot of pretend environmentalism sold to a public who likes the idea of being green without the actual effort of being green.

I know I'm guilty of this as well. I don't buy bottled water routinely. My kid has the flu at the moment, I bought three bottles of ginger ale last night so she could hydrate with less nausea. Will future generations judge me to be a barbarian? I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

I can't fault the big industrialists of days gone by or play the blame game with what future generations might think of me. Without the robber baron big corporate capitalists, we wouldn't have all this gee wiz technology that lets us share our thoughts in forums such as these. They flat out built the industrialized nations into powerful players on the world stage. They've provided us with an excellent standard of living and the freedom to even discuss this kind of thing publicly. Socially, and politically, they got reigned in, and it all turned out pretty well in the end. More recent generations have been slowly improving processes, while at the same time continuing to make new mistakes.

We war for resources, always have, always will. But at the same time, we're also pretty resourceful about adapting and surviving. I have no fear for mankind's future. It's probably not going to be pretty, but then again it never really has been pretty as a whole.
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Old 08-05-2010, 07:14   #81
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LOL.... the fact that you interpreted a statement about a 45ft powerboat and an equivalent sailboat as a 21ft boat illustrates to me that you have little grasp of what you read and even less on the subject...
If people on here wanted to get pompous they could start saying their footprint is smaller because they chose an old boat rather than a brand new one.. and theres enough old boats sitting mouldering out there to keep the market satisfied for quite a few years....
What raises the smile is, apart from a bit of teasing back and forth I don't think I've seen anyone being SMUG in this thread... apart from the guy who does not seem to have a clue... yet feels justified in calling some of us pompous hypocrites..
To your way of thinking boats should be banned..
Steel/Aluminium... harmful mining, polluting in manufacture etc...
GRP.. Oil derived product.. toxic etc..
Wood.. deforestation, still need metal products etc..
What the hell... how can your concience even consider joining this club of Planet Wreckers..
As to tribal communities being greener than us are we not forgeting the slash and burn techniques around, used every couple of years as the land dies from local farming... the poaching that is wiping out wildlife across continents... oh I forgot.. thats OK by you.. they have the right to advance their lives at the expense of everything else... its their god given right... and they don't have a sailboat so they're at the ZERO end.
Grow up or GET A LIFE...

The simple fact that we are human being puts all of us on the 100 mark of your rating system... just being born put you there.
Quit the petty nitpicking and come up with something construtive to reduce a footprint
As to living the 'DREAM".. I doubt if the reality of my chosen lifestyle would equate to anyones dream...
Only ignorance and excessive imagination could lead to that statement...
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Old 08-05-2010, 07:52   #82
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Reading comprehension Phil. I never called anyone a pompous hypocrite, and have gone out of my way several times to point out the opposite in fact. All I'm saying is examine your own life before you ask me to change mine.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:23   #83
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We got to cool out here for a second, or the Mods are gonna be forced to shut down an important thread. Please. Can I ask you all a simple question? If somehow Humans were to suddenly wise up, would population control thru birth control help the Earth and especially the seas recover? Lets find common ground here to further this discussion...
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:54   #84
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Originally Posted by Puddlefish View Post
Reading comprehension Phil. I never called anyone a pompous hypocrite, and have gone out of my way several times to point out the opposite in fact. All I'm saying is examine your own life before you ask me to change mine.
Lmao.. sorry mate, to me smug and pompous are one and the same... just one's a bit louder than the other.. and I've never asked anyone to change their lives.. much less you.
The simple fact is regardless of what anyone says or does... even if we go back as much as possible in our lifestyle to "basic tribalistic living" ...
Unless population growth is stopped and a reversal process begun, any carbon reductions are a vain attempt to try and stop the inevitable.
Natural consumption and need for living space etc..
From space.. to many.. the earth at night looks beautiful with cities and states lit up and sparkling.. to me they look like a phosphorescent scab that's spreading across the planet..
Depressing huh... so's gangerene on your body.. but hell I'm feeding.. do I give a sh#*...?
Its time to stop the spread and become a more intelligent species.. something like the virus in the Malarial Mosquito, they do no harm to their female host.. if we wish to save for our species a reasonable...(by our standards) way of life, population is the only answer...
Crap like carbon trading and footprint reduction are meaningless..
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:12   #85
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My opinion

There is no mother nature, no god, wood sprites, fairies or leprechauns and self interest is the dominant force in the world. Survival is not take what you need at all costs; survival is leave enough for others, especially future generations because it is our genetic material that is truly valuable. One human being doesn't have a hope of surviving in this world. We are a communal animal and require others of our species to have a hope of survival. Competition may make us strong but co-operation allows us to survive. Balance is forces keeping other forces in check. As humans we have developed the ability to overcome the forces that once kept us in check. It takes greater and greater catatrophes to affect our populations. This means we need to apply enlightened self interest to the course of humanity if we don't want to leave this earth barren and incapable of supporting life. If a species numbers are dwindling because of our actions it is up to us to take corrective measures. If the air, water or food sources of any part of humanity become threatened we need to take action to correct the situation. There maybe environmental changes we need to adapt to but there will be some we can't and if it is within our powers to effect change then we need to so. We have evolved with the planet not in spite of it and our future evolution will require that we understand this. There are human beings who study cause and effect with regard to the environment and they need our support. We need theirs. Will the earth ever be restored to what it once was? No. Can it be a place that supports a healthy human population? I certainly hope so and if not what is the point? If you love your children you have to at least think about these things.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:28   #86
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Someone made reference to Lemmings.. an intruiging species.. they realise their population have grown to large for healthy survival and seem to come to a group decision that the strongest of the gene pool remain and the rest commit mass suicide to maintain the survival of the species..
Fact of Island life.. past history demonstrate's that when the human population of an Island out grows food supply avaiable they convert to cannabalism.. if there is no other option within range.
"Fred... this steaks delicious, where did you get it.."
"MMMmmm.. Sure is Barney... who'd have thought Mrs O,Conner could taste this good eh".
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:29   #87
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It seems a total no-brainer that less people will use less resources. It has also been shown that educating women and persuading them to look at careers reduces family size (and therefore population growth). The best way to reduce pressure on resources is to educate and house people decently.

As for nature, the planet is a lot tougher than it is given credit for. Many times in the past any species have been wiped out and the planetary eco-system has survived (albiet radically changed). Nothing humanity has done is anywhere near the abuse the Earth has suffered in the past. The Permian-Triassic event was the big one with 96% of marine species and 70% of land species being wiped off the face of the planet. The other four of the "big five" extinctions "only" managed to wipe out 50-75% of species at the time.

Permian–Triassic extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:31   #88
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Someone made reference to Lemmings.. an intruiging species.. they realise their population have grown to large for healthy survival and seem to come to a group decision that the strongest of the gene pool remain and the remainder commit mass suicide to maintain the survival of the species.
Don't believe everything Disney tells you. Their Lemmings "documentary" was a masterly piece of fiction that became urban legend.

snopes.com: White Wilderness Lemmings Suicide
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:49   #89
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You cannot educate/inspire somebody living at the existence level to "give up" food, fuel, or family for some future global benefit.

Yep ..that's been us for the last two years..

Now who's going sailing today..
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:11   #90
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...a masterly piece of fiction that became urban legend.

snopes.com: White Wilderness Lemmings Suicide
An excellent description for the majority of the posts in this thread...
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