Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-06-2008, 01:00   #106
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 249
Boys. It is not unusual for special regulations to apply in certain situations. Traffic separation schemes, and harbours come to mind. There are also variations it seems in detail between countries.
Might I suggest that there are two prime principles. One both parties are under an obligation to avoid a collision. Two both are under an implicit obligation to use common sense. That may not be part of any rule directly but to rely on "I am under sail" as an overriding principle won't hold much water even if it is not practical to estimate the tonnage of a vessel precisely. Hmm 500 tons or 499? Certainly a lot of people would not know the precise harbour limits. Whether they were within or without them would be no defence but more importantly would not save their lives.
Prudence is I suggest a mark of seamanship. The standards imposed by a Maritime Court may be exacting however I doubt that they would be so legalistic as to excuse anyone insisting on their "rights" in the absence of prudence in avoiding collision. I have read only a limited number of cases but that is my impression.
Right gives way to might is a reasonable working hypothesis.
Even in driving the assumption that the other driver knows what he is doing is debatable. You cannot assume that another boat "captain" has even seen you. I once had a boat port to port cross suddenly directly in front of me totally oblivious. It doesn't seem to me to be much use waving the rule book from the water.
__________________

__________________
chris_gee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 03:54   #107
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I don't know you, or what you do. You make plenty of veiled references, that would suggest you might be able to add some knowledge and/or experience to an earnest discussion.
I consider that it does not matter what I do or have done.

My experience is that those that matter to me have the ability to work that out for themselves from the nature of the information I endeavour to provide, or they, at least, come to the conclusion that they find that information proves generally useful or reliable when it is asked for.
__________________

__________________
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 04:13   #108
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
I received my "Boating NZ" mag today. I was just reading through and low and behold, there is an article on near misses in the sound between Ferries and boaties. The Harbour masters comment was, anything below 500ton gives way to anything above 500ton is our harbor bylaw.
Interestingly, one of the near moss incidents involved a RNZ Navy vessel and the big Ferry in Tory channel which is a very narrow water way with a one ship wide entry from the open sea.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 04:32   #109
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Gee, it's time I piped in here; IMHO sailing a small(ish) yacht near any other shipping is like riding a motorbike on a road filled with cars and trucks except the yacht normally doesn't have the speed or acceleration (sp?) of the bike so I sail accordingly and plan to stay out everyones way regardless of the colregs - perhaps some will think this is irresponsible .

Feel sorry for the bloke who lost his boat regardless of circumstance.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 05:12   #110
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
I tend to do the same Wotname and am extra wary at night.

Do I dare mention it, yes what the hell - that reminds me of another local bylaw for our harbour in that even small pleasure vessels have to advise harbour control of ones intentions at night or in poor visability so they know who you are and can brief one on other movements. Is a lot of fun actually because they come back and treat you just as if one was a big ship.
__________________
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 05:38   #111
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Designing a global explorer (full keel & steel)
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
that reminds me of another local bylaw for our harbour in that even small pleasure vessels have to advise harbour control of ones intentions at night or in poor visability...
You mean calling "Beckon Hill"?
__________________
exfishnz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 05:45   #112
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Designing a global explorer (full keel & steel)
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Another option is the US Enroute Sailing Directions - I checked, and those marvellous folks at NIMA have them available for free download: Maritime Safety Information
......
Thanks for the links, will take a look at them later.

In regards to my original scenario, perhaps there is no real answer. Perhaps the best thing is to just visit the local harbour master (after clearing customs) & enquiring about any rules to his knowledge (in his country) that would not be part of standard colregs.

Certainly didn't mean to bring up the 500 ton rule to cause such a major fuss[1]. One of the reasons why such a rule remained in my head (after so long), is that it was rammed home to us pretty hard (which probably made sense given the tutor was an ex panamax captain & the examiner was a tug captain). I think as an example, we were told that anything that looked like the size of the tugs or bigger then it would be a good idea to give it the “right of way” (even if not engaged in operations).

Tugs from the NZ Maritime Index:

Toia” (she's actually 104' & 301 grt & not the 90' & 600 tons I incorrectly stated previously).

(click pic to enlarge)

Click image for larger version

Name:	toia_tug_01.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	82.9 KB
ID:	4063

Southern Salvor”, 167' & 499 grt (700 ton dead weight, registered as a "tug", was a former oil rig supply vessel)

(click pic to enlarge)
Click image for larger version

Name:	southern_salvor_tug.jpg
Views:	94
Size:	55.7 KB
ID:	4064

[1] With possible exception to CC44 (given he's an Aussie & I'm a Kiwi )
__________________
exfishnz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 05:52   #113
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by exfishnz View Post
You mean calling "Beckon Hill"?
That is probably how the Australians pronounce it , but yes that's the one .

Came about for all vessels after a multiple fatality accident when a ship ran a fishing boat down one night some years back in the straight run down to the entrance.
__________________
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 05:59   #114
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Designing a global explorer (full keel & steel)
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler View Post
But I can confirm for you that he is very well qualified to speak on NZ Maritime Law.
You know, I once met an old salt who was a Crown Prosecutor. Had a yacht & boat shed down in Evan's bay. Nice bloke, actually help me out once when I got myself into a legal jam as a young bloke on the "firewater"

I don't know MidLandOne's "qualification's" & nor is it my business, but I enjoy reading his posts. I can assume many things of many screen names here, but at the end of the day - their claimed "qualification" is still really just an assumption.
__________________
exfishnz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 06:06   #115
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Designing a global explorer (full keel & steel)
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
That is probably how the Australians pronounce it , but yes that's the one .
Yes, well, I've picked up some bad habits

Quote:
Came about for all vessels after a multiple fatality accident when a ship ran a fishing boat down one night some years back in the straight run down to the entrance.
I do know of one where there was a family boat that had 4 crew, only 1 survived. 2 were asleep & 1 was in the wheelhouse. I think they were cutting across the channel? (this was about 93-95).

Edit: or may have been more like 95-98?
__________________
exfishnz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 06:25   #116
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,635
Wheels,

I don't have a problem with anyone wanting to remain coy about their profession. What I have issue with, is that if one is in the position to offer the wisdom that would be afforded by one's (alluded to) profession, then I expect more than "I'm smarter than you" and "You're a confused troll" as answers to a question.

Was the RNZN vessel you referred to less than 500 tons?


Kevin
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 06:46   #117
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Designing a global explorer (full keel & steel)
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler View Post
Interestingly, one of the near moss incidents involved a RNZ Navy vessel and the big Ferry in Tory channel which is a very narrow water way with a one ship wide entry from the open sea.
That's probably why there's a vhf 10 min notify note on the chart.

You certainly would not want two ships going side by side there in very rough weather, its already a tight squeeze as it is.
__________________
exfishnz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 06:49   #118
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by exfishnz View Post
I think as an example, we were told that anything that looked like the size of the tugs or bigger then it would be a good idea to give it the “right of way” (even if not engaged in operations).
500 tons is a very large tug. Your examples are both under 500t. But they provide me another take on the same question. 'Southern Salvor' (499 grt) is in a crossing situation, where she is to starboard of a larger vessel. Colregs would have Southern Salvor stand on, but in a harbour she would have to give way. The reason for the 'stand on' requirement in colregs, is so the give way vessel can plan effective avoiding action based on the predictable movement of the stand-on vessel. So much for predictability - as far as I can tell, there's no way for the larger vessel to know that Southern Salvor will be giving way. Is there?
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 07:36   #119
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Designing a global explorer (full keel & steel)
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
500 tons is a very large tug. Your examples are both under 500t.
True. The 1st one was as a correction to myself (& a visual example of 301 grt). The 2nd one was a visual example of a vessel at 500 grt (although only 499 grt (I searched for one as close to 500 grt)).

Quote:
as far as I can tell, there's no way for the larger vessel to know that Southern Salvor will be giving way. Is there?

Re Southern Salvor:

* What if she reduces speed (or stops)?
* What if she alters course away from the other vessel?

* What if both helmsmen contact each other by vhf to clarify intentions?

In this scenario (in an NZ harbour), both of these vessel's would have already contacted Harbour Control & been provided a report of harbour movements of all ships/fishing vessels etc (we had to do it every time we left the berth or were about to enter harbour limits). I would expect that the masters of both vessels, upon seeing a vessel of similar size (or larger), should be prudent enough to be cautious when navigating around each other & possibly even make vhf contact if unsure of her intentions. Also, vessels over 500 tons have to have a pilot (I think this is exempted when a captain has visited a port a certain amount of times).
__________________
exfishnz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2008, 08:43   #120
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by exfishnz View Post
You mean calling "Beckon Hill"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
That is probably how the Australians pronounce it , but yes that's the one .
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by exfishnz View Post
Yes, well, I've picked up some bad habits
...?
OK, I surrender, what is the joke? I bet is has something to do with Aussies or am I being too sensitive
__________________

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Open 60 sailboat hits whale in artemis transat. WHALE DAMAGE sailingaway Monohull Sailboats 5 26-05-2008 16:12
Is the term "Yachtie" derogatory? David M Off Topic Forum 61 04-03-2008 05:19
Sailing Yacht 'Scarf' Wrecks on Rocks in Lake Worth Inlet on Way to Bahamas Ram Cruising News & Events 19 06-01-2008 21:42
Ship Hits Ice Off Antarctica TaoJones Health, Safety & Related Gear 22 27-11-2007 00:11
Olaf' Hits Samoa - Threatens Cook Islands GordMay Pacific & South China Sea 3 17-02-2005 12:21



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:39.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.