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Old 25-06-2008, 05:29   #76
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Originally Posted by exfishnz View Post
This yuppie yachtie must of thought he had the “right of way” vs a large ship



Attachment 4049
How ironic it was the Pride of Bilbao involved in this video.
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Old 25-06-2008, 05:31   #77
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So you've completely changed your argument - yes
No. I just understand the legislation better than you do.

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I don't know what you think the crew and passengers of a vessel are going to do, while the master of that vessel is conducting a rescue at sea
They are not necessarily obliged to take part in rescue efforts.
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Old 25-06-2008, 05:49   #78
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In NZ the master of a vessel under 500 gross tonnage must not allow his vessel to impede the navigation of of a vessel of 500 gross tonnage or greater in ANY harbour area. This is usually stated in the local district's by-laws but the requirement is a national one covered in Maritime Rule Part 91 so covers all harbour areas whether in the district's bylaws or not.
Hi MidLandOne,

Thanks for the clarification. What you state does "ring a bell". For some reason I must've incorrectly assumed it was also part of the "high sea's".

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Is a very dangerous practice to assume that the ColRegs apply wherever one is. The above type of rule is not just limited to NZ and in many harbours or areas of the sea certain vessels
That's a good point. If I may, I'd like to give a hypothetical scenario (below) & see what answers we get.

A foreign yacht is going to visit a foreign port. The yacht has already notified the port customs of the impending arrival & has already acquired a chart to the approaches of the port. If extra "rules of the road" are not noted on the chart[1], then where else does a foreign yacht master get this data? Is the responsibility on them to get it from the foreign port harbor master office before hand (i.e. website)?

[1] As a true example, I have NZ463F (approaches to Wellington NZ), it notes the ferries, tory channel vhf (10mins notify), but not the 500 ton rule (or any other rule).

Edit: I also have NZ4633 (Wellington Harbour), that also only notes the ferries, not the 500 ton rule.

Edit 2: Would such a rule be in all the latest "Mariners Notices"?
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Old 25-06-2008, 06:20   #79
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Wouldn't a visiting yacht simply follow the Interntional Colregs? Interntional Colregs don't let you assert any "right of way" over a 500 ton vessel anyway since that vessel will often be "constrained by its draft" or some other thing.

Plus... in the States, we are all used to giving way to fishing boats, large vessels and govt vessels in every crossing situation.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a country where small sailboats asserted their right of way over cargo ships.
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Old 25-06-2008, 06:31   #80
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No. I just understand the legislation better than you do.
If by that, you mean "keep grasping at straws until you find one that provides you a tenuous grasp on a feeble argument", then sure...

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They are not necessarily obliged to take part in rescue efforts.
Well unless the master intends to swim to the rescue, or drop off his passengers and crew in the middle of the oggin, we're going to have to assume they will be going along for the ride. Now it's unlikely a master would ask paying passengers to help, but I can't see any master saying to his crew "relax, I'll take care of this by myself."
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Old 25-06-2008, 06:33   #81
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Wouldn't a visiting yacht simply follow the Interntional Colregs? Interntional Colregs don't let you assert any "right of way" over a 500 ton vessel anyway since that vessel will often be "constrained by its draft" or some other thing.....
That's actually a good post.

I guess where I'm coming from is that some of us here are planning to sail to foreign ports that we've not been to before (or in quite some time). At such time, I think that most of us would been using the latest electronic chart for the harbour approaches. Now, if there's a particular rule (500 ton or otherwise) that we're not aware of & its not noted on the chart - then how do we know about it & make sure we don't breach it?
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Old 25-06-2008, 06:46   #82
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If I may, I'd like to give a hypothetical scenario (below) & see what answers we get.

A foreign yacht is going to visit a foreign port. The yacht has already notified the port customs of the impending arrival & has already acquired a chart to the approaches of the port. If extra "rules of the road" are not noted on the chart[1], then where else does a foreign yacht master get this data? Is the responsibility on them to get it from the foreign port harbor master office before hand (i.e. website)?
\
That's a really good question. When I planned foreign port visits as a Navigating Officer, I could just order the relevant pub's from the HSO, along with the charts. These might include Navigation Rules, Harbour Control Instructions, NTMs, and/or Sailing Directions. If they weren't apparently available, then I would use the Admiralty publications, which provided world-wide coverage. This would be far too costly for the typical cruiser. I imagine the internet is a good source for info, and I would definitely check out Noonsite.
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Old 25-06-2008, 06:56   #83
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That's a really good question. When I planned foreign port visits as a Navigating Officer, I could just order the relevant pub's from the HSO, along with the charts. These might include Navigation Rules, Harbour Control Instructions, NTMs, and/or Sailing Directions. If they weren't apparently available, then I would use the Admiralty publications, which provided world-wide coverage. This would be far too costly for the typical cruiser. I imagine the internet is a good source for info, and I would definitely check out Noonsite.
Another good post.

The "Admiralty publications" is a good point, so is the cost (will look into this further).

Am aware of Noonsite, except they may only have data that is relevant to the date the last contributor was at the foreign port, also the contributor may not be aware of any rules themselves.

I though about asking the relevant embassies etc, but they'll probably only have data to assist with your visa (passport) & any cruising permit rules (flag of vessel).

More so on foreign harbour master/port websites, what if they aren't in English (whereas their immigration sites may be).
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Old 25-06-2008, 07:15   #84
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Another thought.

As one should always call "Harbour Control" when entering a foreign port, perhaps the onus would be on them to notify you of any rules outside of standard ColRegs? Is this a reasonable assumption? Or is it prudent not to assume anything?
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Old 25-06-2008, 08:31   #85
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Harking back to the original incident which generated this thread, it prompted memories of two other incidents involving yachts. I seem to recall that Francis Chichester ran up on the rocks of Gabo Island, having fallen asleep thereby leaving the self-steering to keep watch. Presumably by the time he reached there on his circumnavigation, he had a bit of experience and self-awareness under his belt - obviously not enough to stay out of trouble. Maybe trying to cut the corner of Australia just a bit too close trying to stay out of the south-going East Australia Current. I am sure he was grateful that the self steering had at least managed to choose carefully as the yacht was very successfully wedged in a rocky crevice and retrieved shortly after with the assistance of a couple of fishing boats.

Another incident I recall involved a young couple who had cruised the east coast of Australia successfully for a couple of years, built a 40' ferro yacht and set off again with a young baby. Anchored overnight at Keppel Island (on way to the Great Barrier Reef indeed) they were rammed and sunk by a fishing boat on autopilot (apparently even fishing boats have their moments of laxity). Just managed to clamber onto the fishing boat before their yacht sank with all possessions.
Just a final note - some three years later, after a legal saga, they were offered a compromise payout by the insurers of the fishing boat.

I think these incidents merely suggest that "Going down to the sea" carries some risk, which sometimes our best endeavours still cannot avoid. I guess most of us have had incidents which carried some peril. Just bad luck for the poor chap on the NZ beach.
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Old 25-06-2008, 10:02   #86
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I think these incidents merely suggest that "Going down to the sea" carries some risk, which sometimes our best endeavours still cannot avoid. I guess most of us have had incidents which carried some peril. Just bad luck for the poor chap on the NZ beach.

Amen to that.

For some reason the sailing community seems prone to pounce on unfortunate mariners like a bunch of critical vultures. I assure you that every single person on this board who actually sails was completely new and ignorant at some point and made some serious mistakes that they got away with. I was VHF witness to a shipwreck of a cruising ketch on our trip down the baja and I got many emails from the slew of cruisers who live in Ensenada and never manage to leave the harbor wanting more information for "Educational" purposes. I am positive after having heard the local VHF cruiser's net every morning that this forum thread is just about as educational in it's tone and content as that net was and I had no interest in participating. FWIW I have many opinions about what happened and why and I am not a huge fan of the actions taken by the skipper after the wreck but I am still not willing to pile on and pick his bones for my own self-satisfaction so I can demonstrate to everybody that my seamanship is so magnificently polished that I can cast stones at that guy.

I have more stories of completely inexperienced people doing just fine than I have of shipwrecks, but everybody wants to hear about the shipwrecks and crap on them ;-)

Hopefully if/when we jump across to the SoPac next year we wont end up fodder for the vultures ;-)

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Old 25-06-2008, 10:08   #87
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Sailing along with the motor running to charge the batteries. Not in gear matters not. You are now a powerboat. I can't even try to remember how many times I have seen boats try to force freighters to give on San Francisco Bay.

Freighter have the right away over anything in restricted channels. GEEZUS they are restricted in manuevering. Not to mention the rule of tonnage. To me no matter how right I am. I know that freighter is going to crush me. If you can't understand that. Then the gene pool will get thinned
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Old 25-06-2008, 13:15   #88
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The article also has this quote from the skip:
"I heard this bang, bang, and I looked out and there's the island right in front of me," says Whipple.
Islands don't pop up as a surprise to 'experienced yachtsmen'.
Except on LOST!!

Seriously though, I so look forward to logging in here and reading these discussions as i always learn something from them. I do appreciate the many viewpoints and love it here because of it. when i DO finally get a boat, it may be a year before it leaves the dock as I intend to minimum take some type of course (I hope) and hopefully will achieve some type of "competence" BEFORE I try to sail the wee bugger!

I read these threads and only more so resolve not "to be an idiot" (I hope) LOL. i know, no one's perfect but hopefully I'll learn some basic common sense from all you folk.
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Old 25-06-2008, 14:22   #89
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For some reason the sailing community seems prone to pounce on unfortunate mariners like a bunch of critical vultures.
It seems like that, but actually it is not. It is a case of not having any facts, we discuss and debate possible situations. In the end, we here gain a lot of "Off water" experience because every possible scenario is debated. You are now going to be just that little more experienced when next out on the water.
I don't know if the skipper of this accident will ever get to post here, but if he did, he would be most welcome and I hope most welcomed as he would have some valuable lessons for all of us.
Accidents happen, that is reality.
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Old 25-06-2008, 14:34   #90
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It seems like that, but actually it is not. It is a case of not having any facts, we discuss and debate possible situations. In the end, we here gain a lot of "Off water" experience because every possible scenario is debated. You are now going to be just that little more experienced when next out on the water.
I don't know if the skipper of this accident will ever get to post here, but if he did, he would be most welcome and I hope most welcomed as he would have some valuable lessons for all of us.
Accidents happen, that is reality.

Well put Wheels. Thank you.
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