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Old 23-06-2008, 13:01   #31
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Originally Posted by little boat View Post
The article also has this quote from the skip:
"I heard this bang, bang, and I looked out and there's the island right in front of me," says Whipple.
Islands don't pop up as a surprise to 'experienced yachtsmen'.
Islands might not pop up as a surprise - but also no surprise that a Journalist loves a good quote. Whether entirely in context or not.

Always the same when something like this happens, lots of "analysis" based on initial headline grabbing report(s) and in due course a somewhat duller story usually emerges......

FWIW although no serious solo sea miles under my belt, am firmly in the camp that a solo sailor is 99% more a danger to himself than to others and therefore in my book no reason why someone cannot accept the risks, plan as best one can........and then set sail knowing that they won't be 100% alert let alone awake 24/7.

And for the 1%? Well, with a full crew they should have no problem spotting a sleeping sailor coming over the horizon

Rules and laws? Designed by Govt's to stop people having fun
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Old 23-06-2008, 13:09   #32
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Surtsey may have suddenly "popped up" in front of us.
Yeah but it was giving plenty of warning before it did :-)
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Old 23-06-2008, 14:30   #33
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Rules and laws? Designed by Govt's to stop people having fun
Hmm, a bit immature statement.
Using that logic it is okay to drink and drive even if you kill somebody as long as you are having fun??
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Old 23-06-2008, 14:45   #34
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Hmm, a bit immature statement.
Quite possibly

Or perhaps I should have said........."often seems like that"
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Old 23-06-2008, 15:52   #35
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Surtsey may have suddenly "popped up" in front of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler View Post
Yeah but it was giving plenty of warning before it did :-)

Only to those who were awake and watching ...
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Old 23-06-2008, 16:19   #36
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Originally Posted by Lodesman;175267[SIZE=2
UNCLOS compels mariners and coast guards to assist, unless the risk is severe. [/size]
Actually it doesn't.

Like all UN conventions, etc such as for the marine environment and the ColRegs it has no jurisdiction whatsoever anywhere.

For them to have any effect they have to be taken into a country's own law and that may not be done, may be done in part, may be done in whole or may be done in whole with more added.

A good example is the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea - a vessel is required to comply with them only to the extent that they are required by their flag state, their domiciled country if not flagged or the territorial waters that they operate in.

To give them effect, as a couple of examples, the UK has legislation which basically says "This legislation gives effect to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea", whereas New Zealand has in its legislation a Maritime Rule which mostly writes all the words of the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions but adds some more for NZ's own purposes. Some countries have nothing.

It is a common misapprehension that vessels have to obey "International" Maritime Law, they in fact have to obey the maritime laws of the country they are flagged in (and that is the only jurisdiction that concerns them on the high seas), domiciled in or operate in.
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Old 23-06-2008, 17:57   #37
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Boats under way need a helmsman and a lookout. I am ok with a wind powered helmsman and an electronic lookout.

But if you don't have these and you go to sleep. You gotta expect to hit things once in a while.

With his years of preparation down the crapper, I bet no one feels worse about this than him.
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Old 23-06-2008, 19:18   #38
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Old 23-06-2008, 19:50   #39
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Unless the large ship has to make emergency manoeuvres - in a cruise ship that could result in hundreds of injuries, not to mention damage to equipment/furnishings/machinery.
No. A large ship will have very powerful radars (i.e. upto 60kw X band with 12' scanners (narrow bandwidth)) with ARPA. Plus they've got a higher visual point from their bridge. Now, on the open ocean the large ship should have already seen you from miles away. Its captain (or 1st, 2nd mate etc) should have already tried to establish contact with you (i.e. vhf 16) & if no response then he should already be planning safe maneuvers around you. Now, given your yacht is traveling at 4-8kts (or less) then it should be no prob for the large ship to calculate a safe charge of course (for both vessel & passengers) around you. A large ship is more at risk from a semi submerged 40' heavily steel framed (not its thin corrugated walls) container seen at the last minute on a collision course.

Also, like I previously stated, most single handed sailor's will purposely plot a course at a significant distance away from shipping lanes.

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UNCLOS compels mariners and coast guards to assist, unless the risk is severe. Rescue operations by their nature are hazardous, and rescuers often pay the ultimate price, so don't kid yourself.
Excuse me, but nobody compels anybody to do anything. Like I previously stated, its at the discretion of the rescuers whether they go out or not. Beside, they're more likely to rescue a yuppie boat with several crew vs an experienced single handed sailor.

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Well I understand your fishy background gives you a certain non-compliant perspective on the 'lookout' rule
Let me tell you a story about my fishy background. One time we were bottom trawling (inshore) up the east coast (steel trawler with day markers displayed) towing the net (we have the right of way), a 10,000 ton cargo ship was on a collision course with us @ about 16-18kts. We kept trying to raise them on vhf 16, no answer, the ship kept getting closer & closer. It got to the point where I was out on deck with the fire axe ready to start hacking away at the trawl wire on the winches. At the last minute the ship saw us & managed to change course & swing away.

Quote:
Slocum pre-dated UNCLOS
Ever heard of BOC, that's single handed.
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Old 23-06-2008, 20:30   #40
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You have never had a sneaky island pop up in front of you? Funny neither have I. The odd whale or walrus maybe. Hey you guys easy on the old geezer comments. You will all get there some day. I have seen many including myself that can put a lot of young whipper snappers to shame. LOL
You're not wrong my friend. I once served under an old salt who was wrestling sharks @ age 65. He was raised in the days when they pulled cray pots by hand (like his father & grandfather before him), he seriously had forearms the size of "popeye"

Mate, I've met a fisherman from Westport NZ (a notorious river mouth bar port ) whom had one arm & would go out on the shark & tuna. He wasn't much with heading/gutting the sharks - but he drove the boat, gaffed the sharks aboard & even cooked the meals, all this with one arm.

I've even met another fisherman from Castle Point whom couldn't walk, he would lift himself aboard his cray boat, drive it & still handle the cray's (i.e. measure 'em), even drove his ute (flatbed small truck) with one hand on the wheel & one on a block of wood for the gas/brake peddles.

Oh, btw, the 65yrs bloke - once caught a young bloke breaking into his ute (at the wharf). When the young bloke resisted citizen's arrest, the old salt boxed him around the ears & tied him up (with fishing rope) & called the local wharf police. How many yuppie yachtie's would do that???

Edit: the 65yrs bloke is the type of man that would have no prob handling a gaff rig with purchase blocks & running backs during a blow
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Old 23-06-2008, 21:26   #41
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Islands don't pop up as a surprise to 'experienced yachtsmen'.
If only that were true. Even Joyon put IDEC on the rocks - would you suggest that he's not experienced?
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Old 23-06-2008, 21:36   #42
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I don't think rescuers OFTEN pay the ultimate price (but VERY occasionally they do).
Semantics. You'll also have to explain the difference between "hazardous" and "dangerous". But we seem to agree that rescuers have been killed - just how many deaths is an acceptable figure?
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Old 23-06-2008, 21:46   #43
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Actually it doesn't.

Like all UN conventions, etc such as for the marine environment and the ColRegs it has no jurisdiction whatsoever anywhere.

For them to have any effect they have to be taken into a country's own law and that may not be done, may be done in part, may be done in whole or may be done in whole with more added...
Pedant! In becoming signatories to UN Conventions, countries agree to make them law. The point being, there are few countries that are not signatories to UNCLOS, so ultimately in most nations UNCLOS does compel mariners to act throught the nations' statutes. In NZ, it's the 1994 Maritime Transport Act, article 32.

32 Duty to assist persons in danger and to respond to distress calls
(1) The master of a New Zealand ship and the master of a foreign ship in New Zealand waters shall, so far as the master can do so without serious danger to the ship and persons on board -
(a) Render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost:
(b) After a collision, render assistance to the other ship, its crew, and its passengers:
(c) After a collision, inform the master of the other ship of the name of his or her own ship, its port of registry, and the nearest port at which it will call.
(2) On receiving a signal that a ship, aircraft, or survival craft is in distress, the master of a ship referred to in subsection (1) of this section shall -
(a) Proceed with all speed to the assistance of the persons in distress and, if possible, inform them of that fact; and
(b) Comply with any requisition to the master's ship by the master of the ship in distress by continuing to proceed with all speed to the assistance of persons in distress.
(3) Subsection (2)(a) of this section does not apply if -
(a) The master is unable, or, in the special circumstances of the case, considers it unreasonable or unnecessary, to proceed to the assistance of the persons in distress; or
(b) The master is informed that one or more ships have been requisitioned and are complying with the requisition.
(4) Neither paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of this section nor, if the ship has been requisitioned, paragraph (b) of that subsection, shall apply if the master is informed by the persons in distress or by the master of another ship which has reached the persons that assistance is no longer necessary.
(5) The master of a New Zealand ship that is required to carry a logbook shall enter in the logbook a record of every distress signal received and any reason for failing to go to the assistance of persons in distress in accordance with subsection (3)(a) of this section.
(6) Every person commits an offence who fails to comply with this section and is liable to -
(a) Imprisonment to a term not exceeding 12 months; or
(b) A fine not exceeding $100,000; or
(c) Both.
Source: New Zealand Maritime Law - Maritime Transport Act 1994
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Old 23-06-2008, 21:51   #44
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so far as the master can do so without serious danger to the ship and persons on board
If you're going to start quoting the above. Then it proves some of the points made in my previous posts. Oh btw, I've been involved in the rescue of several yachts - yet only one assistance of a fishing troller, funny that, eh???

Edit: Furthermore, I think what you quote above may only apply to commercial ships, not pleasure craft. However, MidLandOne should be able to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 23-06-2008, 22:10   #45
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No. A large ship will have very powerful radars (i.e. upto 60kw X band with 12' scanners (narrow bandwidth)) with ARPA. Plus they've got a higher visual point from their bridge. Now, on the open ocean the large ship should have already seen you from miles away. Its captain (or 1st, 2nd mate etc) should have already tried to establish contact with you (i.e. vhf 16) & if no response then he should already be planning safe maneuvers around you. Now, given your yacht is traveling at 4-8kts (or less) then it should be no prob for the large ship to calculate a safe charge of course (for both vessel & passengers) around you. A large ship is more at risk from a semi submerged 40' heavily steel framed (not its thin corrugated walls) container seen at the last minute on a collision course.
...
Let me tell you a story about my fishy background. One time we were bottom trawling (inshore) up the east coast (steel trawler with day markers displayed) towing the net (we have the right of way), a 10,000 ton cargo ship was on a collision course with us @ about 16-18kts. We kept trying to raise them on vhf 16, no answer, the ship kept getting closer & closer. It got to the point where I was out on deck with the fire axe ready to start hacking away at the trawl wire on the winches. At the last minute the ship saw us & managed to change course & swing away.
You contradict yourself. I hardly need to argue this now, other than to say you shouldn't assume a small boat will be seen visually or on radar.

Quote:
Also, like I previously stated, most single handed sailor's will purposely plot a course at a significant distance away from shipping lanes.
Shipping lanes are irrelevant. Routing can change to take advantage of favourable conditions, or to avoid bad weather. Cargoes can change hands (and destinations) while en route. And there are a lot of ships out there that deliberately avoid "shipping routes", such as warships.

Quote:
Excuse me, but nobody compels anybody to do anything. Like I previously stated, its at the discretion of the rescuers whether they go out or not.


You may want to check article 32 above - a year in jail and a $100,000 fine is pretty compelling.

Quote:
Ever heard of BOC, that's single handed.
Slocum didn't do the BOC Seriously, what's your point? Do you want to check the rescue stats for the BOC races?
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