Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-07-2011, 01:08   #121
Registered User
 
stratosailor's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Blue Planet
Boat: 1963 Pearson Ariel, 25.5'
Posts: 49
Re: 2 Dead, 7 Hurt in SD Sailboat Accident

I just learned of this tragedy a few days ago after making fun of MacGregor sailboats on this forum. I had posted a photo of a sailboat that was overloaded and didn't realize at the time that this was the boat that two people died in. Thankfully, one of the moderators caught it, or someone alerted him to it and it was pulled.

I really have nothing against MacGregors. They are fine for people who want a water-ballasted trailer sailor. I was actually making fun because they are known to be unsinkable (really a good thing) and I thought I would poke fun at how many people it would take to sink one. Well, the boat didn't sink, but unfortunately, a couple of people did lose there lives. I guess that just goes to show that a boat doesn't have to sink for people to drown.

I don't think this was the fault of the boat at all. According to everything I've read, that doesn't appear to be the case.

My condolences to the families of those who lost their lives.

Here is the latest news release on this awful tragedy:

www.valleynewslive.com/.../police-sailboat-too-crowded-in-fa...
__________________

__________________
"We save the world by being alive ourselves." Joseph Campbell

stratosailor
stratosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 01:47   #122
Registered User
 
stratosailor's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Blue Planet
Boat: 1963 Pearson Ariel, 25.5'
Posts: 49
Re: 2 Dead, 7 Hurt in SD Sailboat Accident

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratosailor View Post

I really have nothing against MacGregors. They are fine for people who want a water-ballasted trailer sailor...
Let me make a correction to my previous post. They are fine for people who want a trailerable water-ballasted hybrid motor-boat/sailboat. Personally I think that this is not a good compromise, however there are those who love their MacGregors. The bottom line is be aware of the boat's limitations. If the boat is operated properly under safe conditions, there should be no reason why it shouldn't be safe.
__________________

__________________
"We save the world by being alive ourselves." Joseph Campbell

stratosailor
stratosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 08:54   #123
Registered User
 
Jonathan Reiter's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: aboard Karen in Ft.Pierce, Florida
Boat: 1965 Alberg 35 #190
Posts: 138
Re: 2 Dead, 7 Hurt in SD Sailboat Accident

not a stupid question at all. The answer is; you work with what is available at the time. During my 40+ years in the Navy, Merchant Marine, and private vessels, I was always grateful for my early training as a navigator's asst.(Quartermaster). I had a solid background of deduced (ded) reckoning, weather observation, ship handling, small boat handling, etc. that allowed me to sail my own boats in as foolish a manner as I felt like and take chances with my own life. When I had passengers I tended to go 'by the book' more. As has always been the case, times change and if the 'old timers' in, say, the 1800's had had access to self-tailing winches, depth sounders, GPS and the like, you can bet your best bower anchor they would have jumped all over them. Still; I prefer to occasionally prove (to myself) that one can voyage using no auxillary power and move a seaworthy vessel safely about. Life at sea is better with at least 40 miles of sea room.
__________________
Jonathan Reiter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 09:02   #124
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,762
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

macgregors do not hold 10 people and sail at all well. nor do they float well with so many on board. thi sis older news and by now th owner of the sunk boat should have had his fingers smakked. where is the follow up?
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 09:13   #125
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Port Richey, Florida
Boat: Catamaran Cruisers Aqua Cruiser 41
Posts: 45
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

I had a MacGregor 26X. It really was a fantastic boat. You show me another boat that will float in about 7 inches of water, sail good, power at 20 mph, be fully beachable, and etc.

Any boat is dangerous if you exceed its design limits or operate it improperly.

The Macgregor 26X demanded that you full the ballast tanks all the way, otherwise the ballast water would slosh around and make the boat less stable instead of more stable.

I took my boat out as the lead winds of Hurricane, well it has settled down to a Tropical Storm, Jeanne approached my home about 6 years ago. The boat is really controllable with the double rudders. I would routinely sail up narrow channels and all the way to my dock out back.

So the wind is gusting up to 30 or 40 mph, but the steady state winds were maybe 15 mph. I had a few beers and had this new girlfriend who was clueless as my first mate. As I sailed it up a narrow channel about 20 feet from the back of a line of shrimp boats I got hit by a huge gust of wind that knocked the boat on its side and then the boat spun toward the wind completely out of control and went full bore into a piling and a small commercial fishing boat called the "Ms. Bacardi".

The mast bent in half as the shroud caught the piling and out forward progress was stopped by the mass of the Ms. Bacardi.

Now I looked pretty stupid but nobody was hurt and the Ms. Bacardi had a small scratch.

I limped the half mile across my bayou home and docked under power dragging some of my rigging. Bummer.

I drove over to the bar behind the fishing boats to track down the owner of the Ms. Bacardi. Found him and we went back to look at the damage. He laughed said "Oh, forget about it, that is nothing". I bought him a beer and I guess we were even.

When I examined the boat the water ballast tank was only 3/4 full. When the wind gust hit the ballast had sloshed over and my boat's mast about hit the water.

Is a Macgregor 26 dangerous? Yeah, if you are an idiot, which I was that day.
__________________
dc9loser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 09:42   #126
Registered User
 
stratosailor's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Blue Planet
Boat: 1963 Pearson Ariel, 25.5'
Posts: 49
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Great points dc9, I agree. The boat as designed is safe as long as used within it's intended parameters. That goes for any boat.
__________________
"We save the world by being alive ourselves." Joseph Campbell

stratosailor
stratosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 10:05   #127
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: 2 Dead, 7 Hurt in SD Sailboat Accident

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratosailor View Post
I just learned of this tragedy a few days ago after making fun of MacGregor sailboats on this forum. I had posted a photo of a sailboat that was overloaded and didn't realize at the time that this was the boat that two people died in. Thankfully, one of the moderators caught it, or someone alerted him to it and it was pulled.
I appreciate your change of heart. I've been working particularly hard this past year to shed light on how counterproductive it is to make fun of someone else's boat in an online community. I've seen these sorts of posts ruin other online boating websites, and I think that what we've got here at Cruiser's Forum is too special to allow it to be poisoned by my-boat-is-better-than-your-boat rhetoric.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 10:30   #128
Registered User
 
cruisingkyra's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Victoria, Canada
Posts: 31
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Woah. Looks like they might have hit reef and ripped the keel right off - that would capsize a boat.
How quickly tragedy strikes.
__________________
"At sea, I learned how little a person needs, not how much."
cruisingkyra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 12:49   #129
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Port Richey, Florida
Boat: Catamaran Cruisers Aqua Cruiser 41
Posts: 45
Re: 2 Dead, 7 Hurt in SD Sailboat Accident

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
That video claiming 40-50 knot winds looks bogus to me.
Seas are more like 8-10 feet imho, but I feel the pucker factor for those people sailing that pathetic design. Ick!
Saying a design is pathetic is kinda silly. I'd say that an 8 foot draft heavy duty sailboat is a pathetic design to use in FL or the Bahamas.

The Macgregor powersailors are pretty clever designs actually. you get a safe seaworthy boat (if operated correctly) that will float in the shallows, go 20 mph under power, and is a decent sailing machine.

I wish someone made the same boat in a 40 foot model, I'd buy it.

A 26 foot Mac is more seaworthy than most 26 foot powerboats out there BTW.

In essense the Macgregor line is designed to sell for cheap to allow middle class people to enjoy the water. I bought the 26X I used to own fully rigged with trailer, motor, sails, and options for less than 25k NEW.

Roger Macgregor has done a good job giving the opportunity to a lot of non-wealthy people to enjoy boating.

His company used to be called Venture Sailboats and I grew up sailing them. Good basic boats.
__________________
dc9loser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 13:10   #130
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 54
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

When we critique boat design I think we have to put this into context. This incident was on San Diego Bay and only a stones throw from shore. The wind that day was negligible. No huge gusts. I was working 100 yards from where the boat flipped all day and sail the bay all the time. It sometimes gets a little windy but not like SF bay for example. It was not that windy that day. When we talk about sailing vessels we can critique them on their seaworthiness but you have to take into account this was not a boat that was going into open ocean. Just around the bay which basically where he was is the equivalent of moving between marinas in most bays. Heck I see people all the time in inflatable rafts, kayaks, you name it out in the open ocean out here fishing. I think it is just a question of this guy's judgement it can't be any other object or event to blame. If you take responsibility for others especially those who can't swim or aren't skilled on a boat you have to take extra precautions and be more vigilant. In my opinion he had way too many people on board, period. Especially because they were not that experienced. He should have limited his passengers to a couple if they were inexperienced. If all ten people on that boat were seasoned sailors and swimmers I am pretty confident none of them would even be hurt. I have even swam miles in the bay for triathlons. They couldn't have been more than a few hundred yards from shore. This doesn't mean that the passengers were to blame though. The captain guy took their safety into his hands when he accepted them onto his boat. That is his job and he failed. his passengers died and he doesn't have a scratch. It was his bad judgement. Not wind, not the boat at all. If the boat flipped and he had to account for say two people he probably would have been able to save them both. Easily. Any reasonable and responsible boat owner would have at least mentally prepared for that occurring. Did he even think, what if something happens, how am I going to be able to ensure the safety of nine inexperienced people? If he did maybe he would have reasoned to hire another experienced person to help assist in case of an emergency? Just bad bad judgement..
__________________
outdoorsman37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 13:17   #131
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA
Boat: International Etchells USA 125 Black Magic, Santana 20 475 Ghost, Hobie 33 3100 Bruja, dinghies,
Posts: 1,118
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Reading the news story and past story, and looking at the pictures, this was NOT one of the Power Sailor MacGregor X or M models that came into being in the mid to later 1990s. But the recently referenced news article about the results of the local San Diego police investigation had some interesting nuggets:

Quotes:
The San Diego Harbor Police found that overloading, the vessel's condition and the absence of lifejackets contributed to the March 27 mishap.

Investigators said the sail was held together with duct tape and staples,....

Police had strong words for Heart of Sailing Foundation founder George Saidah, who was piloting the boat and frequently took passengers on trips for the Bloomington, Ind.-based charity.

"We are not labeling him an experienced captain, he's labeled himself as that," ....


The sailboat's manufacturer, Costa Mesa-based MacGregor Yacht Corp., has said that when a 1,200-pound water tank that runs along the centerline of the hull is full, the boat should spring back up immediately if it leans too far into the water.

Investigators said they found the tank empty after it was upside down for three hours but could not determine if it was full when the boat capsized.....


Shean said the group has voluntarily suspended voyages on the West Coast since the March mishap and hopes the trips can resume now that the investigation is complete.
end quotes

The investigation did not appear to get into any considerations as to whether the group may have been violating US Coast Guard commercial carriage regulations by extracting extensive "donations" from their passengers, including special needs children and adults.

That last bit, from the Heart of Sailing's attorney and president of their board, is the most frightening and chilling. They hope to resume their voyages without admitting any mistakes or plans to change anything?!! ouch!!! Now do you see where more boating safety legislation is likely to come from?!
__________________
Pat, from the Desert Sea http://desertsea.blogspot.com
rgscpat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2011, 14:44   #132
Registered User
 
stratosailor's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Blue Planet
Boat: 1963 Pearson Ariel, 25.5'
Posts: 49
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Thanks, Bash. I never intended to offend anyone with my original post, however I can see how it might. This really is a great forum, and although I've only been a part of it for a short time I like the fact that it's not just sailboats or just power boats, it's the entire boating community, just like the real world. When you go to a marina or when you go to a yacht club or out on the water, it's almost always a mix of many types of vessels. The more we discuss topics together on this forum the more we understand each other and the types of boats we operate. That can be nothing but good for everyone concerned.
__________________
"We save the world by being alive ourselves." Joseph Campbell

stratosailor
stratosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2011, 11:08   #133
Registered User
 
webejammin's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pacific NW, sailing the Columbia River, USA
Boat: Gemini 105MC 34 ft hull#753
Posts: 951
Images: 3
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

We traded up to our little catamaran from an 06 MacGregor 26M last winter and to load more than 4 adult people aboard it was almost too many and it became too top heavy. The most people we ever sailed with was 3 adults and then the cockpit was a bit crouded. As far as sailing in winds of 30 to 40 kt's we did that but not out on open ocean on our custom 3rd reef and about 3 ft of our jib and got 9.5 mph on a down wind run surfing wind waves, but it was like riding a bucking bronc ( which I've done in my youth ) and when I took over for my Admiral I had to pry her fingers off the wheel.
I'd say the owner of the boat was stupid and if they didn't die should be arrested for manslauder.

A sad day indead. I guess that is why the state we live in ( Washington )has a boater's licence now.
__________________
Wind in my hair and a nice catamaran
Phil & Elaine
webejammin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2011, 12:17   #134
Registered User
 
stratosailor's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Blue Planet
Boat: 1963 Pearson Ariel, 25.5'
Posts: 49
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Quote:
Originally Posted by webejammin View Post

A sad day indead. I guess that is why the state we live in ( Washington )has a boater's licence now.
Unfortunately, as our waterways get more and more crowded and as the government takes control of more and more aspects of our lives, it seems that boating licenses are inevitable in all states. It's an irresistible source of revenue for the government.
__________________
"We save the world by being alive ourselves." Joseph Campbell

stratosailor
stratosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2011, 01:17   #135
Registered User
 
webejammin's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pacific NW, sailing the Columbia River, USA
Boat: Gemini 105MC 34 ft hull#753
Posts: 951
Images: 3
Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Well I'm 61 and grandfather in and don't need to get a licence but to go to Canada or Oregon I do need my WA licence. The licence is issued by the WA State Parks dept and is $10.00 with no renewal needed. I guess they just want to know you have read the laws and know boating some and aren't 10 years old driving a drunk adult around.
__________________

__________________
Wind in my hair and a nice catamaran
Phil & Elaine
webejammin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
accident, sailboat, san diego

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Wanted: San Diego to Tarawa MoonlightSailor Crew Archives 3 23-08-2011 17:47
Crew Wanted: Seattle to San Diego Big Kahuna Crew Archives 9 10-08-2011 01:12
Crew Wanted: To Share San Diego ASA 103-104 Class rpoint16 Crew Archives 0 21-07-2011 19:52
San Diego, CA to Panama (C.A) via Sailboat jminich444 Pacific & South China Sea 12 18-07-2011 09:46
Crew Wanted: One More Crew Member - San Diego to Seattle in July Pleione Crew Archives 2 05-07-2011 15:30



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.