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Old 30-07-2011, 03:44   #136
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

webejammin - That doesn't sound so bad. I could live with that. As long as it doesn't turn into a money generating scheme at the boater's expense.
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Old 30-07-2011, 09:29   #137
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

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webejammin - That doesn't sound so bad. I could live with that. As long as it doesn't turn into a money generating scheme at the boater's expense.
Just give it a little time, it will.
Just look at all the red light cameras these days.
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Old 30-07-2011, 10:13   #138
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Re: 2 Dead, 7 Hurt in SD Sailboat Accident

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Rebel Heart, potentially stupid question from novice here. What would you do differently now. Would you simply not go anywhere without GPS / Charts? Cheers
The old fashioned way means you would never go without a paper chart. When you do go you would also know how to take a fix using visual bearings and know ded reckoning.

Far too many boaters don't know these "obsolete" ways of fixing their position.
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Old 30-07-2011, 10:44   #139
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Gosh, David M, I sure hope these aren't 'obsolete' navigation skills. I'm sure there are a few who trust their GPS and chartplotter will always function everywhere under any circumstances. However the prudent mariner will always use whatever back up he or she has available.
A couple of good friends are deck officers aboard large ocean going vessels (Tanker and Container) and they still use a paper chart to monitor their position while crossing the ocean. ( Personally, I feel very uncomfotable without paper charts, parallel rules and dividers!)
The tradegy in San Diego is more due to judgement (or lack thereof) and the skipper will pay the price of remembering the incident long after the headlines are gone. Capt Phil
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Old 30-07-2011, 12:22   #140
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Re: 2 Dead, 7 Hurt in SD Sailboat Accident

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I appreciate your change of heart. I've been working particularly hard this past year to shed light on how counterproductive it is to make fun of someone else's boat in an online community. I've seen these sorts of posts ruin other online boating websites, and I think that what we've got here at Cruiser's Forum is too special to allow it to be poisoned by my-boat-is-better-than-your-boat rhetoric.
Bash I completely agree!! I don't post often because I don't have the experience or knowledge base to make meaningful comments about the technical stuff. I find the strong negative opinions sometimes directed at previous posts confusing and irritating. I appreciate diversity of opinions, but belittleing someone elses opinion is not helpful. I am grateful for this forum and the moderators vigilance in keeping it social and educational - Thanks guys
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Old 30-07-2011, 14:49   #141
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Alaska JD, you are the kind of guy that makes and keeps CF a free wheelin', fun forum complete with well mannered, interesting and generally competent posters.
The moderators perform a valuable and unrecognized service standing watch over some pretty independent and opinionated folks.
The way I view the forum is we are all sitting aboard each others salon and our comments and behaviors should reflect that we are each others guest. Our rhetoric and comments should be guided by that simple circumstance.
Lively discussion is encouraged but rude, flaming behavior shouldn't be tolerated. That many come here to read and learn is a real tribute to the value of civilized conversation that the forum encourages.
Great to have you with us... cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 30-07-2011, 16:55   #142
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Bash, Capt Phil, Alaska JD:

Just to clarify, there was no "change of heart". All I did was post a picture of a sailboat with a humorous caption. None of you with the possible exception of Bash have seen it because it was immediately pulled and I received a message explaining that the photo I posted was of a boat involved in a tragedy and that some people might be offended. I immediately sent a message to the moderator agreeing and thanking him for pulling the photo lest it offend someone. I had no previous knowledge of this incident. I only recently joined this forum and really never even heard of the tragedy until I was informed. I agree with you gentlemen on all points that you make and I agree that negativity directed at someone else's boat is not helpful or kind. Just wanted to let you know that this was a light-hearted attempt at humor that I thought at the time was completely harmless. Once again I apologize to anyone who might have taken offense, even though I am the one who came on this thread and related the entire story which only a very few of you even knew about.

regards
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Old 30-07-2011, 19:20   #143
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

No Worries, Strato... I never did see the picture or your comments. I wish some folks had made derogatory comments about a couple of boats I have bought BEFORE I bought them! Fortunately, I've come out well the other end.
Sometimes it is helpful to have comments, even though negative, if well intentioned and based on fact or personal experience.
None of us knows all there is to know about any particular make or model and CF is an excellent way to glean good data to help us make decisions before sinking hard earned $ in to a venture. Cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 30-07-2011, 20:08   #144
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

Thanks Capt Phil, and I hope I didn't come off as being overly defensive. I just don't want people to think I intentionally meant to downgrade the MacGregor line of boats, or any other brand or type for that matter. Poking fun at how hard it is to sink one was my whole point. And that's a problem all boats should have! (I wish I could say that my boat was unsinkable)! On the same thread I posted two other photos illustrating the un-sinkability a MacGregor, along with their own captions.

But that was a different thread. The focus of this thread is the tragedy which occurred in San Diego, and what happened there is no joke. It is something we can all learn from. Again, even if a boat is unsinkable, it can still capsize. People can still die. And you can build the best boat in the world but if proper seamanship and safety procedures are not exercised, tragedy can still strike.

Peace and Fair Winds To All.
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Old 30-07-2011, 21:18   #145
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

I didn't sense any defensiveness at all in your response, Strato... nor should you feel that way. Your contributions to the forum are truly appreciated by me and, I'm sure, others.
What happened in SD was tragic but more a function of judgement than equipment failure by the sounds of things. Having lived aboard for many years in the area, we have been blessed by very few fatal accident in the harbor. From what I've observed, there should have been many,many more given the apparent lack of respect for other boaters and the water. Just my opinon... Capt phil
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Old 30-07-2011, 23:07   #146
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

I don't know what exactly to say but whatever happened it is a tragic accident.
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:42   #147
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

The ability of the ballast tank to be partially full, (and destabilizing instead of stabilizing), is one of the questions I have about this boat. Can you tell if tank is completely full, (sight glass?), does it have internal baffles?

A water tank submerged has zero specific gravity. Dense substances like lead are usually chosen for ballast because they retain most of their weight under water.

A combination of at least a few good lead strips on keel would be best. This boat is still on my short list, but a few incidences like this one has raised some questions.
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Old 03-08-2011, 13:28   #148
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

I was briefly interviewed by one of the detectives. He said something to the effect of "it's hard to make a solid case on the water about something like this, a lot of **** happens out there."

I said "Well yeah but a lot less **** happens if you don't put a dozen people on a twenty six foot boat with no keel."

He laughed and said "Pretty much, but it's up to the DA as to what they can prove in court and it doesn't look good."


He was just putting the pieces together and collecting the evidence. The guy obviously didn't intended to hurt anyone, and there are more overloaded boats that don't overturn, so who knows what you can actually prove in court factoring in admiralty laws, precedent, and a jury.

Edit:

Not to mention the fact that we have no-kidding murders, rapes, and all kinds of other crime. So for the city to invest its resources int something like this is really taking away from some child molester somewhere. I wish every crime can be punished properly, especially one that hits close to home like this, but I certainly wouldn't want to be the one saying that a boating accident from negligence should take priority over some gang shooting.
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Old 03-08-2011, 13:37   #149
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

On a 1994 MacGregor 26 swing-centerboard water ballast that I own, below the companionway is a loose inspection plate a few inches above the top of the water ballast tank. At the top of the tank is a screw-turn valve mechanism that opens and closes orifices on the bottom of the tank to let water in and out, and an air vent hole that is sealed by inserting a drain plug.

When the boat is launched, the procedure is to open the valve to allow water to fill the tank while the boat is not moving. Then, the operator should verify the tank is full before shutting the valve and inserting and tightening the drain plug to prevent air and water from potentially sloshing out of the tank.

Here are issues as I seem them:

If the operator attempts to fill the tank while the boat is moving, the tank may not fill completely.

If the valve is not closed securely, water will flow in and out of the bottom of the tank and the tank will lose some of its ballasting ability.

If the boat were to sustain a knockdown with the air vent drain plug loose (and worse with the valve open as well), water could flood out of the ballast tank into the hull and cabin of the boat and destabilize it, along with leaving less water in the ballast tank to contribute to righting moment.

Based on photos taken of the Heart of Sailing boat the day before the tragedy, and upon a test I once performed in a marina, the behavior of a Mac 26 with ten people in the cockpit is that the bow will rise up a foot in the air. The boat essentially cannot be maneuvered under sail since it is extremely reluctant to tack even in ideal conditions with this overload condition. Even under motor, it is difficult to steer. It feels unbalanced, tender, and strange.

With the bow rising up in the air, the operator's visibility is impaired, making proper lookout in a crowded area difficult at best. With non-sailors on board, visibility is further impaired and distractions are multiplied.

And, this is with the ballast tank properly filled and sealed! I can barely imagine how tender, unstable, and accident-waiting-to-happen this would be with the tank partially or completely empty.

The boat doesn't have a keel. Chines are somewhat rounded but even the classic Macs are fairly flat bottomed aft. The centerboard only weighs on the order of fifty lbs. or so and is raised and lowered by a mechanism that has negative mechanical advantage; significant weight could not be added without a major re-working and reinforcement of the system.

The bottom of the canoe body is only about a food below water line, so it would take adding a whole lot of weight to get much in the way of righting moment, and you would have to calculate whether the hull would be structurally capable of carrying much weight. Plus, adding weight to increase the boat's stability would work against the whole design concept of the MacGregor, which is to have a relatively large trailer cruiser that can be towed by a moderate-size vehicle.
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Old 03-08-2011, 13:51   #150
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Re: Two Dead, Seven Hurt in San Diego Sailboat Accident

If the Operator of that boat has a USCG License, He knew better than to overload that vessel.
No I will never call him a Captain...Because he is not worthy of the title and never will be.
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