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Old 21-03-2008, 11:16   #16
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I too feel sad for these guys families, and as Gord has inferred, speculating on what may or may not have happened is really only taking up screen space.

But can some-one State-side advise. Surely if they were racing, even an inshore event, there must have been safety standards set for them to adhear to?

JOHN
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Old 21-03-2008, 11:36   #17
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I think what your not getting here...and it has been mention a few times...is!!! The conditions outside the gate can be horrendous and were that day. Just as horrendous as they would be "offshore" It is easy to sit in a comfy chair somewhere warm and with the birds singing overly analyzing what some papers wrote. I hope their family is not reading this thread.
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Old 21-03-2008, 12:14   #18
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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
We can pick nits, but let’s not get paranoid on behalf of Gale (68) & Harrow (72).

It was a 25-mile race, outside the Golden Gate (Pacific Ocean).
A sailor’s preparation (personal & boat) is ALWAYS a factor in the success or failure (a sinking with loss of all hands is a failure) of a voyage - even a daysail.
Any discussion of the cause(s) of this tragedy (negligence, luck, alien abduction) are speculative - just as were the passages I quoted. They cannot be considered findings; but do represent a little bit of evidence (where it’s in short supply).
Yeah, not much to go on here. You're right.

It just left a bad taste seeing that the article questioned his gear and suggested he needed offshore gear. Sounded to me like he put a lot into his boat. I guess we'll never know on this one.
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Old 21-03-2008, 12:15   #19
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Originally Posted by swagman View Post
I too feel sad for these guys families, and as Gord has inferred, speculating on what may or may not have happened is really only taking up screen space.

But can some-one State-side advise. Surely if they were racing, even an inshore event, there must have been safety standards set for them to adhear to?

JOHN
Yup...

VHF radio, flares and life jackets for all onboard. Those are the standards in most club races I've been in in New England.
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Old 21-03-2008, 12:25   #20
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CS Maybe this is nit picky but I'm not sure that horrendous fits as an adjective. I have sailed/raced out there on smaller boats and the conditions that are described were bad for some parts of the world but whould have been considered a little worse than normal for SF Bay Bar. Don't get me wrong I believe it was a tragedy but before doing an ocean race in SF a prospective competitor needs to bare in mind the conditions. One boat did turn back early.

Swagman there are requirements for the race but there is not a pre race inspection as there would be for the sydney Hobart or the Transpac or a major race.

Here is another link to stories about the sv Daisy. Dive team finds what is believed to be wreckage of missing boat - Examiner.com

Looks like the boat sunk. They don't know why.
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Old 21-03-2008, 12:29   #21
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Two oldish guys on a 25nm race on THAT day in THAT area on an oldish Cheoy Leaky O/S 31? Recipe for trouble, no matter the equipment or the race rules.

Anyone who thinks sailing that course wasn't offshore either has never sailed there or hasn't much offshore experience, or both. That's a treacherous part of the coast...very strong currents (up to 6 knots ebb), strong winds, and an undersea configuration which in the "right" conditions can create huge seas. Not to mention the minor "annoyance" of a busy shipping lane.

I used to teach sailing there. Believe me, it's not a place to fool around, even if it's in the context of "club racing".

My bet is they broached, were rolled, dismasted, and went down fast without opportunity to make an emergency call. The whole thing could have taken only minutes.

My thoughts and prayers are with their families.

Bill
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Old 21-03-2008, 12:36   #22
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Anyone who thinks sailing that course wasn't offshore either has never sailed there or hasn't much offshore experience, or both. That's a treacherous part of the coast...very strong currents (up to 6 knots ebb), strong winds, and an undersea configuration which in the "right" conditions can create huge seas. Not to mention the minor "annoyance" of a busy shipping lane.


Jeeezzzzz... everybody's got their panties in a bunch on this board lately.

I am going on the FIRST POST that says it's a 10NM race around a lightship. If that isn't "club racing", I honestly don't know what is.

I'm also DEFENDING THE SAILORS because the newspaper article cruicified them for not having radar and EPIRBS on this 10NM Race.
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Old 21-03-2008, 12:41   #23
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No - you've mis-read the original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie
... Two older fellows in a Choy Lee sailed outside the Bay in the Double Handed Lightship Race ( A loop around the lightship that is ~10 miles outside the Bay) ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SF Chronicle
... the 27th Annual Doublehanded Lightship Race - a 25-mile course from a starting line beside the Golden Gate Yacht Club's race deck on San Francisco's Marina Green to a navigation buoy about 12 miles offshore and back...
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Old 21-03-2008, 13:06   #24
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Sulli,

I think you are right in defending the sailors. Also btrfors is correct about that race. It can be a VERY TOUGH one. Kind of sounds like no matter what gear he had it happened much to quick. Maybe you can compare this to doing the Gulf Stream in 40knot? winds from the north. The S.F. Bay is my home, and the Golden Gate eats boats every year. My condolances to family, and friends............
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Old 21-03-2008, 13:07   #25
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Yes my writing wasn't clear or accurate. The race starts at Golden Gate Yacht Club about 2.5nm E of the GG bridge then goes 10 miles W of the bridge outside the bay to the lightship. A total of 25 nm. It is not a walk in the park. But that is the playground for ocean racing sailors in SF. The conditions were not unusually bad. But they weren't benign. It sounds like they had the required safety gear. MOB pole VHF I don't know about flares. But if you get pooped in those conditions and your hatchboard isn't in there is a definite possibility of being sunk.

The newspapers didn't cover the story well but considering that the reporter probably had little or no experience in sailing they can only report what they hear. An EPIRB would have been good to have. Radar is nice on that coast but not a neccessity. Every time someone goes out on the water there is the chance of death. It is a small one but there is still a chance. Going out into the ocean in 25 to 30 knots increase those chances. Lat 38 did a better job of covering the story. Everyone knows that newspapers tend to sensationalize.

The race is more than what most people would consider a club race. Extra precaution was/is needed. Its funny how repetition can make you complacent.
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Old 21-03-2008, 13:29   #26
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A club race in South Africa can see winds of up to 50 knots before they cancel it. Just because most club races are an excuse to go sailing doesn't mean that some of them can be very demanding.

It sounds like they just had some terrible luck. The newspaper story was informative, right up to the point where they started trying to speculate about how it could have been avoided (spare battery, etc). If they got rolled and dismasted, a spare battery would help about as much as a potato gun.
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Old 21-03-2008, 13:39   #27
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I think btrayfors has made a pretty good guess but also perhaps the foundering was predicated by some critical boat failure that with the focus on racing….. was not discovered in time.

The professional in me disdains racing, calls it…. “bad seamanship” and actively discourages that mindset in the daily work of being a mariner………Yet?

You sometimes have to wonder why sailors race? Two elderly gentlemen out there, not expecting to win, but to participate in a test and right of passage that has kept them young and engaged all these many years. Living a full life in a sometimes harsh environment and remaining forever young.

A toast to them both and whatever their epitaphs may be, those that knew them well, will probably remember with a smile
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Old 21-03-2008, 15:16   #28
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Jeeezzzzz... everybody's got their panties in a bunch on this board lately.

I am going on the FIRST POST that says it's a 10NM race around a lightship. If that isn't "club racing", I honestly don't know what is.

I'm also DEFENDING THE SAILORS because the newspaper article cruicified them for not having radar and EPIRBS on this 10NM Race.
Sully...People have been very kind about this in the thread but hey...if you havn't sailed it...YOU DON'T KNOW! Just say to yourself..."I don't know". See? Easy. Just as I have no idea of sailing conditions where you are...because...I havn't been there...I don't know.
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Old 21-03-2008, 15:31   #29
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You sometimes have to wonder why sailors race? Two elderly gentlemen out there, not expecting to win, but to participate in a test and right of passage that has kept them young and engaged all these many years. Living a full life in a sometimes harsh environment and remaining forever young.

A toast to them both and whatever their epitaphs may be, those that knew them well, will probably remember with a smile
Very well said, Pelagic.

One of the finest sailors I've had the honor to race with (club racing) is 75 years young. Young, I think, because he sails, and puts his heart in it! And what a gentleman he is.
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Old 23-03-2008, 14:10   #30
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This trajedy reminds me of another shipwreck - The Edmund Fitzgerald in a storm on Lake Superior and the fact that much initial analysis and conjecture was not as important as nor supportive of the acknowledgement that lives were lost and for that, all persons interested in the incident should only initially offer condolences to their loved ones and respect for the sailors who paid the ultimate price for - in the case of the S/V Daisy - their passion and on the Edmund Fitzgerald - their livelyhood.

Armchair analysis and criticisms are moot until real hard evidence is gleaned from the wreakage and facts surrounding the conditions of the moment of occurance.

The only real and apt observation that comes to my mind is contained in the song written by Gordon Lightfoot about the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald is "Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the minutes they turn into hours" and this for me anyway really focuses what this unfortunate occurance is about - the suffering of those sailors at the moment of their loss and this demands only our compassion for them - regardless of how well they or their boat were prepared or what unusual conditions may have caught them by surprise.

I am certain that in due course we will all learn of what the experts can tell us as nearly as possible as to what events occured to cause this just like the Edmund Fitzgerald. In the meantime, maybe we can refrain from any conjecture on fault or blame.
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