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Old 22-11-2008, 09:25   #76
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In war situations where you can shoot at and fight with combatants, soldiers or police make a very good answer. The pirate situation fits this description perfectly. If you are a journalist or an honest man, then you should not have been on the boat.
In situations where the population is involved and in the way, soldiers are a very bad answer. A blockade or dropping a big bomb on that fuel tanker and letting the population figure it out in their own way is best.
Not being mean, but it is time the gloves came off on this little issue. Capture a mothership. Question the crew with all means needed to identify the warlord they serve. Drop one of those fuel bombs on the compound of that warlord. Next one you find, do the same thing. Be consistant and let that folks in country figure it out for themselves.
Use soliders against the identified combatants and long range weapons on the headquarters. That is how you stop something like this. Let Somalia take care of Somalia and simply inform them of the cost of stealing what they need from the rest of the world. Right now they think it is a win win situation because we have allowed them to think that way. One of those fuel bombs that would level one of those boom towns the pirates have created would incinerate everything within range, going a long way towards thinning the pirates ranks, eliminating any profit from piracy, destroying their eqipment to cause more trouble, and in general would promote healthy social change there. If you are in the car with the armed robbers, you are an armed robber. This is how we treat our own youth. If you are in a pirate boom town celibrating the return of captured pirates as heros, then you are guilty of piracy. Take them all out and help the food shortage over there!
In case you have not figured it out, I am one of those soldier types myself. I don't care if my neighbor is green, yellow, purple, or black. What he does in his yard is his business. If he starts to threaten the honest law abiding folks in the neighborhood or their children, then he has to go. Used to be the old men would go have a talk with him and explain it to him, and if that did not work, then he was culled and one of the old men went to play cards in the can. Knowing his grand children were safe was all the reward he needed. In some cases, the drawing of straws would be involved to see which of the old men did the deed and risked the fall. The world has abandoned this simple entirely correct way of living and for some reason the folks like these pirates seem to rate more than the bullet they deserve these days in many folks eyes. I am not one of the new thinkers. The old way worked just fine.
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Old 22-11-2008, 10:43   #77
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I remember reading about a period in history where all Jewish people were thought to be financial pirates and leaders had a similar blanket solution.

I had hoped we had evolved since then.
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Old 22-11-2008, 10:50   #78
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In war situations where you can shoot at and fight with combatants, soldiers or police make a very good answer. The pirate situation fits this description perfectly. If you are a journalist or an honest man, then you should not have been on the boat.
In situations where the population is involved and in the way, soldiers are a very bad answer. A blockade or dropping a big bomb on that fuel tanker and letting the population figure it out in their own way is best.
Not being mean, but it is time the gloves came off on this little issue. Capture a mothership. Question the crew with all means needed to identify the warlord they serve. Drop one of those fuel bombs on the compound of that warlord. Next one you find, do the same thing. Be consistant and let that folks in country figure it out for themselves.
Use soliders against the identified combatants and long range weapons on the headquarters. That is how you stop something like this. Let Somalia take care of Somalia and simply inform them of the cost of stealing what they need from the rest of the world. Right now they think it is a win win situation because we have allowed them to think that way. One of those fuel bombs that would level one of those boom towns the pirates have created would incinerate everything within range, going a long way towards thinning the pirates ranks, eliminating any profit from piracy, destroying their eqipment to cause more trouble, and in general would promote healthy social change there. If you are in the car with the armed robbers, you are an armed robber. This is how we treat our own youth. If you are in a pirate boom town celibrating the return of captured pirates as heros, then you are guilty of piracy. Take them all out and help the food shortage over there!
In case you have not figured it out, I am one of those soldier types myself. I don't care if my neighbor is green, yellow, purple, or black. What he does in his yard is his business. If he starts to threaten the honest law abiding folks in the neighborhood or their children, then he has to go. Used to be the old men would go have a talk with him and explain it to him, and if that did not work, then he was culled and one of the old men went to play cards in the can. Knowing his grand children were safe was all the reward he needed. In some cases, the drawing of straws would be involved to see which of the old men did the deed and risked the fall. The world has abandoned this simple entirely correct way of living and for some reason the folks like these pirates seem to rate more than the bullet they deserve these days in many folks eyes. I am not one of the new thinkers. The old way worked just fine.
So we just annihilate everyone in the pirate villages, both the guilty and the innocent? That's called genocide. There are more humane and legal ways of solving this problem.

Really the best way is to put the ships and yachts transiting the area under military protection making it impossible for the pirates to board them. The fewest number of people die and it stops the piracy problem.

I don't know much about the politics of the area other than the only semblance of structure are a number of warlords running the country, but something must be done so that the people of Somalia don't have to resort to piracy in order to live. The true root of the problem is poverty.
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Old 22-11-2008, 12:57   #79
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David & Pelagic,

I think the problem here is you are thinking with a civilized & democratic mind. The problem there with the terrorist, pirates, is that they are not. They only know what we see from them. They have been reduced to this level, by trying to survive. Violence, and terror is what they understand. The rest of the time they are laughing at you until they kill you. It's Mad Max on the water for them.....i2f
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Old 22-11-2008, 13:09   #80
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Runner..for once I have to disagree with ya.

Rid the fly not the larder...

Remember they have hostages to complicate things..

You are right... it was let go waaaay! to long and you are right on the reasons why..because we are to soft on crime and criminals rights...Oh the poor poor people syndrome

This is why this should not involve our military as I stated before..

We have become a Nation with no stomach for war or at least winning one anyway.. so best we leave it alone and let others deal with it either privately or other countries without that reserve.

An Idea could be to have Every ship be required to have 20mm canons on them of something...with your background you Im sure would know of a better choice.. and maybe a private contractor held responcabal to operate it...maybe not.

So far they have just been given a free pass aboard...leave your car keys in you ignition and it wont be long before your a victim of piracy as well...
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Old 23-11-2008, 03:43   #81
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There is another side to all this. From what I have gleaned, the pirates started off by trying to stop international fishing fleets destroying their fishing stocks and then progressed to any body sailing through their waters. The fishing stocks are now destroyed. There wasn't the same international concern when those international fishing pirates were destroying the livelihood of a poor people.
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Old 23-11-2008, 09:13   #82
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Some of the answers confuse me.
If it is not okay to attack those associated with the pirates, then we need to release several thousand people from prison that did nothing but take a ride with those that commited a crime. That is always the part that confuses me. How is it that the pirates rate better treatment than our own youth do in the same kinds of situations.
I don't remember a report of a single pirate ship coming up next to another boat and asking for food! I don't remember a single case where they took the food off the boat. Hungry doesn't excuse armed criminal actions. Especially when all of the UN aid is in a warehouse under the control of a warlord and only his people eat. The people on a boat passing the area are not the problem there, and neither is the number of fish.
And to the answer that poverty is the cause, that is just pure hogwash. If the money spent on weapons to steal the UN food deliveries was spent on irrigation, there would be no food shortage there. They made their own bed.
The same excuse is used here to try and explain inner city youth violence. No opportunities. BS also. There are a dozen places today where you can get all the calories you need a day for less than 2 bucks. If you are poor, you have to live like it. Ask the hundreds of thousands of our seniors on social security that head to Walmart super centers every day to get two chicken strips and some potato wedges for their main meal of the day. Those are folks that worked their backsides off for 45 years or more to have enough to own their houses and to eat when they got old. No sympathy for those too lazy to go to work at McDonalds and begin to build a life of their own. Lots of them carry weapons that are worth enough to feed them for months so that they can steal what they want and never have to work. There is no excuse for lawless behavior in a lawfull society, and there can never be. If you think all it takes is a little quality education to change things, you are talking to a person that attempted to teach math to a bunch of them while they were incarcerated. You can't save a someone that revels in that which is killing them. You can't teach what they do not want or care to know.
The touchy feely crowd has their place and value. I would jump and die to protect them. In the end tho, they need to realize that man is an omnivorous pack predator/scavenger with his eyes in the front of his head possessing binocular range finding vision. Look that up and find out what animals share those attributes. The lessons and rules society teaches so that large numbers of us can live together in relative peace have to be strictly backed up by those willing to cull those that will not allow a healthy society.
Your words about the possible justification of their actions using the fishing thing as an example ignores reality. There is and can be no accepted excuse for hunting other human beings in a pack with weapons other than defending society against those that do. So, to justify the pirates using the one exception that can be allowed, you would have to define the pirates as defense forces for their society. If you believe that, I have a big bridge for sale!
Wrong is just simply wrong.
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Old 23-11-2008, 19:47   #83
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I am not excusing the pirates, but saying there is very little said when international fishing fleets steal the fish of nations unable to defend themselves. Where were the international armed warships to protect those fishing rights. This seems to be one law for the rich and powerful nations and another for the smaller weaker ones.
It is not just fishing but other resources. Some nations have even gone to war with massive use of ordinance to try and get control of oil reserves because they feel it is their right to drive gas guzzlers. We stand idly by while corrupt governments displace people from their land to build condominiums for the western oil company personnel, or when people are shot for objecting to oil wells polluting their land and water. The only rule that this seems to teach us is that might is right and greed is good.
We are all party to these these things that I guess you would define as wrong for a civilised sosciety as we buy the poducts of these companies. Fair enough for people to protect their assets and go in with guns blazing. That is what people do. The moral outrage is just a bit hard to stomach
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Old 23-11-2008, 19:59   #84
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David & Pelagic,

I think the problem here is you are thinking with a civilized & democratic mind. The problem there with the terrorist, pirates, is that they are not. They only know what we see from them. They have been reduced to this level, by trying to survive. Violence, and terror is what they understand. The rest of the time they are laughing at you until they kill you. It's Mad Max on the water for them.....i2f
I understand your point...they are behaving like..uh..pirates!

This does not mean that the international community should stoop to their level. I'm sure even pirates will understand what a row of 50 caliber bullets shot across their bow from a warship means. It will be more than obvious that perhaps it is not a good idea to board that merchant vessel.
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Old 23-11-2008, 20:07   #85
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Runner..again a lot of wisdom and common sense in what you say..and I agree with 99% of it.

My "fly and larder" example was just to say ya cant drop a bomb on the oil tanker just to kill a coulpe rats...it's past that now...we may well have to placate to them to free the hostages..but after that I agree any one on a pirate boat once that is over should not live another day.
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Old 24-11-2008, 09:57   #86
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Stillraining, if we hade told Iran that the fleet was on the way, and that every one of those hostages better be in good health and waiting at the dock when it got there, much of the current kidnapping for ransom fad would never have happened.
To those that make the decisions. If anyone ever kidnaps me or mine and holds us for ransom. Drop something big on me when I am surrounded by my captors please! Don't risk a single soldier to do what can be done from 400 miles away in perfect safety, and do not let them do whatever for 4 months while you talk to them. Just swat them and me with a big enough fly swat to get the point across!
You don't burn the building down to kill a couple of rats, at least until they start attacking people on a regular basis. Then you burn it down and make sure none of them get out to breed and pass on the trait.
To the person that wants to cure all of the world's ills before dealing with the pirates. Why?
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Old 24-11-2008, 11:03   #87
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quote:Then you burn it down and make sure none of them get out to breed and pass on the trait:unquote

I can only shake my head at these kinds of words. Can't quite believe they are still being aired today.

I'm not even sure why we are debating a solution to a piracy issue with super tankers on a site for cruisers?

Surely the simple answer is for the shipping companies to run in convoy with either armed escorts, be they commercial or a naval task force.

That way only those taking part in any piracy attempt would receive what they deserve.

What should be debated on our our recreational cruising site is how cruisers trying to cross this same piece of water can secure greater protection than they get today. Is is it not worth lobbying to get a slow convoy for cruisers heading east west and maybe also north south say once each month? I am sure many would contribute towards this cost if planning to transit these waters.

It would seem with a 450 mile off coast range - the stakes just got higher in trying to get by un-noticed by just sailing further offshore with no lights on!

Come to think about it - I'd be even more worried about sneaking along with no lights if a trigger happy commerical firm were out there just lusting to blow away some unidentifed vessels!

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Old 24-11-2008, 11:38   #88
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"Why should my tax dollars be spent to protect the private cargo of the oil companies."
If that tanker is under a Liberian Flag, your tax dollars (you don't look Liberian) shouldn't be spent to protect it. On the other hand....this is exactly why US corporations are supposed to flag their vessels under a US flag. Then there's all those nasty old regulations that mandate your tax dollars be spent to protect the US flag--and whatever it is flying on.

How many heavy cruisers are in the Liberian Navy, anyhow? I don't have a copy of Jane's around.<G>
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Old 24-11-2008, 12:03   #89
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... How many heavy cruisers are in the Liberian Navy, anyhow? I don't have a copy of Jane's around.<G>
NONE - the Liberian "Navy" possesses 6 coastal patrol craft.
The Liberian National Coast Guard, the Naval Division of the Armed Forces of Liberia (AFL), includes three 50ton, Swedish-built coastal patrol craft that were delivered in 1980, as well as three smaller American-built patrol craft delivered in 1976.

The Analyst Newspaper : Liberia : 2008 : Feature Article
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Old 24-11-2008, 12:58   #90
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I dont see convoys as a long term answer.Whether for ships or private boats,all convoys have stragglers.And the pirates will be hanging around like a bunch of U boats looking for them.
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